Character Generation: Creating Characters, not Choosing Classes (Wall of Text [WOT] Warning)

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Tuhtram

Silver Supporter
What's stopping me from creating a 35-year-old Thursar with Shaman-like powers (which are described in their lore) if I felt like it? Well currently, the Game.
I'm basing most of my opinions on: The presented lore, the mechanics of physiological diversity, player testimonials/feedback, and things that we've been told by SV over time such as: "There is no need to delete and recreate your character." and (When talking about the negative aspects of many other MMOGs) "The levels and gear dependency create a level of separation between characters that cannot be overcome by player skill. That same separation inhibits the social aspects of the MMOG because of the division between different play styles and experience levels."

This isn't just me whining to "change it" for my own personal reasons -- I'm pretty fine with what I've got and where I am (my dream playstyle/race combos ended up working out well, not many people were so lucky). This is an honest suggestion coming from a perspective of genuinely wanting to improve the game for everyone that this affects.
-- The Clades --
Currently: Classes In the Form of Clades
Suggestion: Clades are Heritages, Not Class Choices

Maximum stats are currently very limited and very different depending on one's ancestry. I made a big post about that here, but I've thought about this more and I felt that I could present it better. (If you're concerned about the exact numbers then check out that thread.) I'm of the opinion that different Clades should have less extreme differences in max stats, and instead the emphasis should be on how long it takes to get those attributes to where we want them. So while an Alvarin can't be as strong as a Oghmir, the Alvarin can still become pretty strong but it will take much longer. This will all depend on what the Devs want to do, and what their plans are. I am not asking them to change their plans if their plans go against this.


-- Different Ages --
Currently: Specific Years, Specific Stats
Suggestion: Specific Wide-Spanning Age Groups, Specific Stats


As for ages, I think that options like "Young Adult", "Middle Adult", and "Elderly" instead of choosing exact age could really be used better for a few reasons. For one, the stat differences might make a little more sense instead of them changing every few years. And for two -- this also allows the implementation of different textures (and maybe voices down the line) for different age groups.

This way, people won't be forcing "23 Year Old Veela" on someone if they wanted their character to be 35, they're just going to tell everyone they're 35 even if theyre 23. It doesn't really do anything. Under what I propose, it still won't matter much if you're a Young Adult or a Middle Adult, but I think if your character is Elderly there might be stat changes because of the inevitable effects of aging.

All you have to do is toss a few wrinkle options in the "Middle Adult" group and you're looking at a decent representation of every age group without giving players so many options that they end up making things feel very artificial because only hyper-specific ages are the "best" for certain playstyles and it's just what they'll choose anyway. Currently it's really just giving you a choice as to if you want to be disadvantaged or not because of a number based on your future playstyle. There really is no reason to not choose the "best number", so why not just get rid of that and make it more about larger age groups? If someone wants an older character to look younger than they are -- they can do that. More choice and ability to be creative with Character Creation.

-- The Sub-Clade Ethnic Groups --
Currently: Nave's Stereotypes -- Classes In The Form of Heritage
Suggestion: Nave's People -- Heritage Makes Certain Choices More Likely, But Not Certain.

Clades.gif

To keep from sectioning up those within Clades too much (there are situations like Sidoians currently having 32 more max Int than Kallards), I also suggest that those within Clades have the same max attributes but different resistances to getting attributes up which will reflect their genetics/culture. So while a Kallard might have to spend a longer time investing in Intelligence skills to get to the same Intelligence stat as a Full-Int Sidoian, it's still possible.

My reason for suggesting completely taking out max stat differences within the Clades is so that there are less max-attribute options so that people actually reflexively have more choice. It allows for us to be less prejudiced as players. As someone in the Help Channel put it:

"When you look at a character's race, you can tell what they do."

How realistic is it to look at a character and say "That person is really bad/good at [insert skill here]." Based entirely on the way that they look? They have a word for that, it's stereotyping. The game currently severely reinforces that, and as such it has a negative impact on immersion, playstyle choices, character creation, and lore. Essentially all of the different groups within Clades are running around as literal representations of the stereotypes of their people and I don't think that reflects a virtual world -- It's more like a game creating barriers between groups so that players have visually-based character types so that they can be easily identified instead of representing different ethnicities/cultures within a world.

I do, however, understand that culture and genetics will effect certain aspects of a person, which is why I suggest sub-Clade attribute resistances like the ones between Clades, but less effective. Players looking for the "best human warrior" will probably typically choose a Kallard, Khurite, or a Sidoian, but that doesn't stop a Tindremene character from being just as good eventually. This gives people much more choice and freedom. This also allows for the usability of "Jack of All Trades" ancestries like Tindremenes who don't really excel in anything since under this new system it would mean they're the most versatile and most likely to pop up in many roles.

For similar reasons I suggested less attribute differences between the Clades (Average Alvarin have 40 more Dex than an Average Oghmir), but still leaving some differences to reflect that their bodies have adapted and evolved differently. All Alvarin will have more potential in Dexterity than everyone else, but that doesn't mean that Humans won't be able to reach a comparable level with a lot of training. This will prevent Dex-based playstyles from being funneled into Alvarin characters. There also don't always have to be differences between Clades in all max stats. For instance, why not give Alvarin and Humans the same Con and Int? They're already pretty similar there already on average.

-- Closing / Further Elaboration --

When you have 100% Strength you are the strongest possible within this fictional universe of a person of your ancestry. So why can the strongest Alvarin possible not use a somewhat powerful bow? Considering that the starting stat is so low for everyone, you'd think they'd at least be comparable since the starting stats are so similar. However, it currently feels less like "You're becoming as strong as you can be!" and more like "You're working up to becoming a representation of what the stereotype of your heritage is!" because of the disparity. I've read "There is no need to delete and recreate your character." in the FAQ, but if you can't use any effective bows as a character not specifically built for archery from the beginning... then you will have to reroll.

When we're making new characters, are we really Creating Characters, or are we Choosing Classes and Playstyles that we're then locked into? I think one is more important for a character in a sandbox game where you never know what you'll end up needing to skill-up in. I think one is more important for when you might have a specific character idea in mind. I think one is more important for a character in a virtual world where not every individual of an ancestry is going to be built the same way and do the same thing.

Maybe they Devs are fine with the way the game works now in this regard, but I figured a suggestion couldn't hurt.

So many people delete their characters and have to reroll because of the large limits between every group. If we completely eliminate the limits between those within a Clade to prevent treating each Sub-Clade group as a Stereotype and shrink the limits between the Clades, we'll see more players happy with their choices because no choice completely blocks someone out of a playstyle even if some choices are better than others -- just not so much better that they blow the others out of the water like a Veela having 40 more Max Dex than a Huergar.

Instead, we will have the freedom of choice no matter what we start as, because how is a new player supposed to know exactly what combination to start as? We'll have true freedom of playstyle from the get-go that has little to do with where our character's parents came from -- and I think that's very important for a virtual world to really feel real. When we aren't running on stereotypes of groups and instead we're focusing on the fact that the person developed the skill and worked to improve their attributes, it will make things feel much more natural. Because of the resistances, players who want to streamline their experience will be able to do so and because of this we will also get a naturally flowing amount of mages/thieves/warriors from the groups that are intended to be more geared towards that.

The only disadvantage will be that our choices of age and race won't matter as much. They'll still matter, but those alone won't set us ahead. If this game is truly meant to be about player skill over stats then I don't see the problem with that. It makes it even more about player skill and less about predetermined scenarios.

-- Why Do You Always Write So Darn Much In Your Suggestions And Explain Everything? --

It's a rule:

"2. Suggestions must contain constructive content. Posting that something simple would be a good idea while not giving any explanation or details will not be useful to the devs and therefore will not be tolerated. Please explain your ideas and go into detail. Explain every direction (why something needs done, what changing it will do, what adding something will do, etc)."
 

Strilan

Exalted Member
SV, hire this f-ckin' guy already.
 

Avargol

Well-Known Member
Thursar should be perma grey, isn't that in their lore that they are outcasts and shunned
 
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Tuhtram

Silver Supporter
Thursar should be perma grey, isn't that in their lore that they are outcasts and shunned
They aren't allowed in a most of Tindrem (basically they're only allowed in the Sinking City, unless they're slaves for people outside of that area) and normally are more-or-less pushed into living in areas like Kranesh and Gaul'Kor.
  • "... Eeta who live in the city of Tindrem are banished to Vica Caducus, the Sinking City, and are not allowed to set foot on any other property in the capital. ..."
    • --(Native Thursars are considered Eeta)
  • "... It is possible to find smaller Thursar villages on the outskirts of larger human settlements, such as Kranesh outside of Tindrem and Obrig on the plains of Myrland. ..."
  • "...Those Thursars who are unable to adapt to civilisation due to their orcish nature or upbringing end up in Gaul'kor, together with all sorts of scum. ..."
There's plenty more here if you feel like reading.

I don't think they should necessarily be perma-grey, because that'd mean they'd be killed on sight and I think that's a bit unfair to the players and unrealistic (they'd probably just be tossed into Vica Caducus). But I can see plenty of NPCs in Human societies (especially Tindremene ones) just outright refusing to deal with Thursar. It would probably make Thursar characters pretty rare in areas outside of lawless towns like GK and Kranesh. I can also see why they wouldn't do that, though. Kinda inconvenient, especially now when everyone's starting in Tindrem for the time being.
 
It would definitely be nice, all of this really, not having a reroll characters. I mean the only reason I don't PvP is because I really don't want to play as a Thursar and really don't want to be a Mage.
 

a.out

Senior Member
Thursar should be perma grey, isn't that in their lore that they are outcasts and shunned
Even though I quite like this idea, it still won't fix the 80 percent thurkhur supreme issue, since 80 percent of long term population is red and/or gives a fuck anyways. It would even imbalance the game in favor of the outlaw.
 

Drostan-

Trial Member
Definitely think this is one of the best, most well-written suggestions I've read so far. I think implementing this could help keep players, and improve the overall balance of the game.
 

eldrath

Well-Known Member
Loving it! To me the current status is unbearable and the planned rituals don`t sound like much either. Please implement something like this!
 
Thursar should be perma grey, isn't that in their lore that they are outcasts and shunned
If this took place during a major patch or update, so many people would die instantly upon logging in if they are in a town since 90% of the players are Thur Khurs.

I love both topic's suggestions, as when I returned from a 1 and a half year break, I wanted to make a human fighter but don't want to be a Khurite. Id love to be a Sarduucan Mounted Archer, but I cant because of the stat caps is just plain silly. Also, those elite guards are somehow larger than a max sized player Tindremene.
 

Diphling

The Desperado
I haven't yet read the thread, but the title strikes me as funny. I see the word "Tuhtram" and that translates to Wall of Text :D. I mean that in a loving way, I would rather see well thought out posts rather than "LOL U BAD" all day. Now to read the thread.

Edit: Read through it, agree completely.
 
Thread starter #11

Tuhtram

Silver Supporter
I haven't yet read the thread, but the title strikes me as funny. I see the word "Tuhtram" and that translates to Wall of Text :D. I mean that in a loving way, I would rather see well thought out posts rather than "LOL U BAD" all day. Now to read the thread.
Love ya' Diph!

Truth be told, I've actually got two more thought-out threads typed up.. But I know I shouldn't post them so soon after this one so I'm just... waiting, rewriting them, making pictures for them. They're actually both pretty short but I don't want to flood the Suggestions & Feedback Board. People might be getting sick of seeing Serris's face.

It happens, I get sick of his face too.​
 
I like the post and agree with the idea. I think the best argument for normalizing stats across the various clades is new player accessibility. New people are not always going to want, or even expect, to have to research the entire meta-game before rolling a character. People, at least from my narrow experience, choose races that they think are cool. It really sucks to choose a character that you think is cool, only to have the game mechanics smack you down later.

THE GAME: LOL at your futile attempt at a Blaine warrior. :p

Also wik: I was lucky when I came to the game. I came from EVE, so I expected to have to do a lot of studying. Also I immediately thought Thursars were cool, and I wanted to be a warrior. So the game mechanics and my personal aesthetics were in alignment.
 

Drostan-

Trial Member
Also wik: I was lucky when I came to the game. I came from EVE, so I expected to have to do a lot of studying. Also I immediately thought Thursars were cool, and I wanted to be a warrior. So the game mechanics and my personal aesthetics were in alignment.

I also managed to luck into my character's build, as I wanted "Just the biggest dumbest fucking monster I could get" and made a Thursar Kallard. Though 2 months later, I'm actually considering rerolling him, since his dex is SO abysmal that just getting around town is a pain, and the only way I can do combat is on a mount.
 
I also managed to luck into my character's build, as I wanted "Just the biggest dumbest fucking monster I could get" and made a Thursar Kallard. Though 2 months later, I'm actually considering rerolling him, since his dex is SO abysmal that just getting around town is a pain, and the only way I can do combat is on a mount.
There you go, that's how bad meta works
 
Maybe the species in Mortal that are bad in PVP should get together an organize. You know like a union? What would it be called though...
 

Drostan-

Trial Member
Maybe the species in Mortal that are bad in PVP should get together an organize. You know like a union? What would it be called though...
lol funny, but it's not just about PvP. I can't be a good crafter as a Khurite, because I'm capped at 80ish int depending on age, and just over 100 str/constitution, depending on age.
An 18 year old full Khallard has 85 dex, 105 str, 115 constitution, 93 psyche, and 71 intelligence. Is there any real point in going Full Khallard?

Things like this definitely bug me, and I think Tuthran's right in his post.
 
I chose the wrong age at character creation and was told the only way to remedy this was to re-roll. It might sound like common sense, but that's simply not good enough for me. I was under the impression characters would never have to be deleted to undo past choices.
 
Yeah. We probably should not forget all those Thru/Kur's who yearn to be metallurgists, swordsmiths, or tailors.
 
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