Discussion on MO2 skill pool separation (trade/combat)

Thread starter #1

Necromantic

Well-Known Member
Hello, old friends and frenemies.

I'm bored right now so I thought I might make my opinion known and see what others think. :p

I personally really dislike the decision to have separate pools.
What it does is it will always disadvantage someone who has no interest in combat and kind of force them to pick up some whether they want to or not to get the most out of their character. A fully combat focused character can basically put as many points into trade on top of their combat as a fully trade focused character. I assume there will be some things in their design to limit specialization (at least I would hope so), but I don't see any way they could negate that big disadvantage they are giving the full trade play style or really any play style that doesn't want to invest all that much into combat.
MO already had that problem where the whole world was mostly a PvP world, with relatively little to do for most other people with some exceptions, this would even make that worse. Now you can disregard other play styles even more because everyone can be part of the combat!
You can argue: Well now trade characters can do combat too. But it's a fact that a lot of them don't care or want that to begin with or some just want to specialize in one thing. Or even those that for various reasons just can never be good at it. Good design should make room for most play styles, not turn everyone into a hybrid. This is basically the opposite of a good solution to the problem of making different play styles viable.
If anything I would have much preferred a system with synergies like if you are a miner you get some bonus to fighting with pickaxes because you know them well or if you are a good sword fighter you know some stuff about the weapons and get some bonus to crafting it, even if not mastery.

On top of that it seems completely arbitrary and like all it's there for is for the people that don't want to focus on one or the other to not complain about the one character limitation. I say all this as someone who does enjoy combat and doesn't really do much focused crafting outside of feature exploration. And I don't like the one character limit either because I do enjoy playing different play styles, that includes completely different builds or races. I'd still want a Blainn and a Kallard and not have to settle for one for everything. I do value some roleplay in my "roleplaying" games, not to mention the factual changes these things have on gameplay.

Then comes the question of what to define as combat and what as trade. Is taming combat or is it trade? What is breeding?
Is riding or swimming related stuff going to be combat or trade? So will it cost trade or combat focused people more?
It's just not something you can separate easily.

I'm personally very much into in-depth specialization with choices that make a difference and have both advantages and disadvantages. And this basically goes against all that, no matter if they add some specialization on top of that.

Just my too many cents, so what about you?

Maybe this should be put to Feedback & Suggestions but I see it as a general discussion for now.
 

Najwalaylah

Exalted Member
What it does is it will always disadvantage someone who has no interest in combat and kind of force them to pick up some whether they want to or not to get the most out of their character.
The warrior elite whose status depends on strength and skill (or, in videogames, on 'strength and skill' in pushing buttons, with a varying degree of eye-to-hand coördination, response time, and physical coöperation with the game servers thrown in) will always lord it over those who are more notable for qualities such as diligence (or, in videogames, tolerance for pushing buttons-- sometimes to ridiculous degrees of persistence).

Someone who has no interest in swaggering through combat will always be forced to do something, and possibly be shamed at every opportunity, if some others notice his distaste or lack of enthusiasm or interest for it. It's nothing new, and it's simple social Darwinism. There's a great hunger on the part of those who prefer combat (as a group) for feeling superiour to those who do not, and games have to serve this hunger. You can't do this by making players of all styles feel equally respected by the community, and you probably can't do it by making players of all styles feel equally respected by the makers of games, either.

In Mortal Online, it was always said to "Just log on your fighter if anyone bothers you", and in MO2 it will be unnecessary to say even that, as everyone will be his own fighter (whether he wants to be or not).

If you want a Blainn and a Kallard, you'll have to buy two accounts. I feel certain a man like you could manage that.
Then comes the question of what to define as combat and what as trade. Is taming combat or is it trade? What is breeding?
Is riding or swimming related stuff going to be combat or trade? So will it cost trade or combat focused people more?
It's just not something you can separate easily.
You're right that those things cannot be separated easily, but of course part of the fun of the game is figuring out how to min-max one's choice of skills, once the arbitrary designations have been made. If that's not fun for you, then maybe this is still the wrong game for you.
I'm personally very much into in-depth specialization with choices that make a difference and have both advantages and disadvantages. And this basically goes against all that, no matter if they add some specialization on top of that.
You're probably right.
 
In the original game players could play all the ways they wanted by just logging into another account/character.

Having just one character per steam account limits this greatly. So having more options on one character balances this out a bit. And I for one will be glad to have some means to try and defend myself on the one character I have. Even if it is normally a peaceful character.

That said I have always been for some synergy between skills. I really hope to see that as well.
 
Thread starter #4

Necromantic

Well-Known Member
It's not more options. It's not an option when it's not optional and has no consequence to it. It's just more stuff with less consequences.

If they flat out gave you more skill points and you'd have to choose wisely what to spend them on that would be an option, this is not. And you could still do the same thing if you wanted to, just with actually having to lose out on some other things.

I'd much rather have two characters that I can play with different races, setups, play styles where I can fully decide and have advantages and disadvantages for my decisions than have one character that can somehow be the best at whatever combat skills he wants to do and the best at whatever trade skills he wants to do. All it does is hurt people that want to specialize and invest in one field.

People will still just make multiple Steam accounts anyway and then have even more advantages.
 
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Teknique

Junior Member
Hello, old friends and frenemies.

I'm bored right now so I thought I might make my opinion known and see what others think. :p

I personally really dislike the decision to have separate pools.
What it does is it will always disadvantage someone who has no interest in combat and kind of force them to pick up some whether they want to or not to get the most out of their character. A fully combat focused character can basically put as many points into trade on top of their combat as a fully trade focused character. I assume there will be some things in their design to limit specialization (at least I would hope so), but I don't see any way they could negate that big disadvantage they are giving the full trade play style or really any play style that doesn't want to invest all that much into combat.
MO already had that problem where the whole world was mostly a PvP world, with relatively little to do for most other people with some exceptions, this would even make that worse. Now you can disregard other play styles even more because everyone can be part of the combat!
You can argue: Well now trade characters can do combat too. But it's a fact that a lot of them don't care or want that to begin with or some just want to specialize in one thing. Or even those that for various reasons just can never be good at it. Good design should make room for most play styles, not turn everyone into a hybrid. This is basically the opposite of a good solution to the problem of making different play styles viable.
If anything I would have much preferred a system with synergies like if you are a miner you get some bonus to fighting with pickaxes because you know them well or if you are a good sword fighter you know some stuff about the weapons and get some bonus to crafting it, even if not mastery.

On top of that it seems completely arbitrary and like all it's there for is for the people that don't want to focus on one or the other to not complain about the one character limitation. I say all this as someone who does enjoy combat and doesn't really do much focused crafting outside of feature exploration. And I don't like the one character limit either because I do enjoy playing different play styles, that includes completely different builds or races. I'd still want a Blainn and a Kallard and not have to settle for one for everything. I do value some roleplay in my "roleplaying" games, not to mention the factual changes these things have on gameplay.

Then comes the question of what to define as combat and what as trade. Is taming combat or is it trade? What is breeding?
Is riding or swimming related stuff going to be combat or trade? So will it cost trade or combat focused people more?
It's just not something you can separate easily.

I'm personally very much into in-depth specialization with choices that make a difference and have both advantages and disadvantages. And this basically goes against all that, no matter if they add some specialization on top of that.

Just my too many cents, so what about you?

Maybe this should be put to Feedback & Suggestions but I see it as a general discussion for now.
Crafters have been given the opportunity to show their merits and provided nothing but a dead market in all towns and then trash commodities in Tindrem. Armors with terrible backing and base materials sold at massive mark ups. Most people didn't even sell anything and would commonly say they don't sell materials for gold or armor for gold. It was so bad that the one guy who actually bothered to sell armor and weapons Ichorous was famous for doing that.

No, the MO1 system is such a barrier to entry in to basic mechanics of the game which would be fine if the players didn't abuse the crap out of it.
 
Thread starter #6

Necromantic

Well-Known Member
What does bringing up the old system even mean to what I said? I did not compare it to any previous iteration of it.
Neither did I only talk about crafters but all trade skills, which isn't just crafting. And this goes both ways as well. It takes meaningful choices away from more combat oriented characters as well. Even if they'll most likely make more use of that.

Also of course no crafters are around after years of the game not providing much of anything to do for most of them. You don't make that better by turning everyone into one. Doesn't helpthat gold has been made worthless. And there wasn't all that much else in the game you could offer anyone either. In the end it's all Supply and demand. If you have nothing of actual value to offer to someone why should they make you anything?
Nobody has to show anyone any merit, the game has to show merit to people.

I remember people selling things in an open market in Meduli, Fabernum and Morin Khur early on when there was still hope and potential and valuable interactions to be had. Auction houses also really didn't help, there should always be an advantage to direct interactions.

How about we separate archery, melee and magic into different combat skill pools so everyone can be everything because choices are bad, there isn't enough of everything and we need to put more people in all kinds of roles for when there is no one of the appropriate role around.
 

Najwalaylah

Exalted Member
...is not under discussion, apparently (and wasn't always quite like you paint it, if it was being discussed-- maybe in another thread? Note: my dislike of what you posted is a direct consequence of its failure to address the OP sufficiently, and is not SPAM. Thanks.).

To be fair, maybe you could tell us what you think of the MO2 system as outlined so far, as if it was a new game.
Neither did I only talk about crafters but all trade skills, which isn't just crafting. And this goes both ways as well. It takes meaningful choices away from more combat oriented characters as well. Even if they'll most likely make more use of that.
Okay; if Star Vault assumes from years of loud bitching that most people care the most about trade skills-- however you define them-- as a necessary evil that no second person can (or, should have to) be depended upon to provide, can you blame them, @Necromantic ? (It might even be the wrong assumption... Okay, you can blame them.)
Also of course no crafters are around after years of the game not providing much of anything to do for most of them. You don't make that better by turning everyone into one.
Even if the split pools don't make it better, do they make it worse?

Veteran players who dislike the idea may nevertheless put up with it and most folks (at some point, if MO2 succeeds at all) will be new, and won't join the game at all if they have great objections to it. Kind of a weak argument, I admit-- sort of depends on there not being an alternative in this niche. We've seen how that does not work.

So the player can do some of his own supplying, if he has to, even if he doesn't like it; if the supply from others is great enough, won't he use the skills of others in preference to his own? Likewise, the people who make things and supply mounts and raw materials, and who prefer to do those things with as much of their playtime as possible will be busy and happy enough if there is enough demand for their services, without being quite helpless in some very basic areas. (Can you imagine a full-loot, full PvP game with no absolutely safe areas where skill selection resulted in avatars who could not be skilled or given attributes to defend themselves successfully? Who'd play that... oh, wait.)
How about we separate archery, melee and magic into different combat skill pools so everyone can be everything because choices are bad, there isn't enough of everything and we need to put more people in all kinds of roles for when there is no one of the appropriate role around.
I think that in your well-pointed sarcasm you have reinvented RIFT, and, no, we don't want that, either, do 'we'? But you would want enough people around, and that's going to be a real challenge. I think MO2 has to get 'big' (for its niche) or go home.
 

Teknique

Junior Member
The mo 1 system is the only system that we can draw parallels from. The op wants a system at least as similar to mo1 as to disallow combat crafters. This is not speculation to the meaning of the op as it is stated explicitly.

My post illustrated the consequences of a system that has producers and consumers.
The producers will provide increasingly sub par goods the higher the barrier to entry in the market or in this case how much effort it takes to create a crafter.

Mo1 = dead market
Separation of crafting and combat= mo1
Separation of crafting and combat = dead market
In short competition is good, even though I can craft in mo2 I may still not want to. The more people I can buy from the better, the higher quality good I should have access to.
A mo1 like system gives me 1 person to buy stuff from and if aku sieges their keep then that’s the whole market
even simpler summary: look kid I don’t wanna buy your guard fur cultist set for 9g because you and the only other two kids selling shit are rats
 
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Even if characters can craft and fight at the same time with separate skill pools, the dedicated fighter or crafter will still be sought after for their superior goods or services since they will focus their skills towards one or the other.

The hybrid crafter and fighter will essentially be what we currently have in MO1, but with a one character limit. This means not only are they not going to be able craft or fight as good as the dedicated characters, they won't be able to craft everything and do magic and fight using every weapon and magic school. SV will design it in such a way that everyone can do some of the most common and basic tasks, but will still have to seek the goods and services of other players that they lack.

Sure, players can multi-tab multiple Steam accounts and run several characters at once (even through multiple PCs), but that's something outside of SV's ability to control. They won't ever be able to design a game where one player can only control one character at a time due to external means I've described above, I doubt any game developer can. The best they can do is lock their game down to one character per account.
 
People will still just make multiple Steam accounts anyway and then have even more advantages.
Regardless, the game is being designed around 1 player and that is how a new player is expected to be able to play it.

But, as I said it will be much more limited anyway because there will be no f2p and only 1 character per paid account.

For around $30/month a player could have 8 subbed single pool characters after opening slots in MO1. If prices stay the same you would only get 1/4 (2)of the split pool characters at the same price. On top of that there will be no f2p option to have another 4 characters open a day.

So it will be way harder for one person to do everything for themselves even if single characters do more than in the past. Which should lead to more reliance on other players than there was in the past.

I personally believe single characters with split stats is a good change that will make single characters more playable. I also believe that it will improve the economy because players will be more depended on other players over all.

The real trick will be to get more players in the game. Which should work out better if the single character the game they bought allows them to play is not super gimped.
 
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Golt

Trial Member
I like the separation of skillpoints and 1 character per account.
Being out mining on your extracter in MO1 and being atacked or being caught at the blast furnace extracting you only had one option: try to ride away. In MO2 you can actually fight for your life and goods. Or the other way around: You go to the tephra crater to mine and see someone mining there already. In Mo1 that meant "Ok hope he didnt see me, let me log over to my combat character that i have logged off close for this purpouse"
Also, a person will be more easily recognized as their one character and none of that guessing if thats one of X persons 8 alts.

As for specialization choices, i guess the race you choose will be a more important choice.
 

Speznat

Senior Member
I like the one charackter thing, because people get mor erecognized and its not that, leave 1 logged out at keeep if we got attacked, the game with so many alts is so s hit design. one char only is best. the char need to be able to do the same as 4 chars. but with one its better. its not that alt standing somewhere just in case, and its not that a crafter miner or whatever is complelty unable to defend themselves.
SV made the right decission
 
I'm curios where they put skills that are something in between of combat and utility. Like taming or thievery.
 

Speznat

Senior Member
I'm curios where they put skills that are something in between of combat and utility. Like taming or thievery.
non combat, because they are no combat skills. or can you kill someone with thievery? or taming?

stuff like athletics, weapons, stance, feint, and other shit is combat. to be able to let animals attack should be a combat skill. and if you dont have that skil your pets cant attack.

swimming, hauling, taming, is no combat

i guess thats best solution. it gives more freedom and youre not limited like in MO1, to much limit is shit sv, thats why many mmo have a job system were you can master every job to max, you can learn all. because than you have access to mor econtent to play. I for myself never made an alchemist in MO1 but i wanted but i said to myself one char slot just for a fucking alchemist come on sv seriously. Advertising ultimate freedom in a game and giving exordinary much limits is not fun. limits are good but not to much. best example with extractor than you need one extra guy to gather the shit is just shit design sry.
 
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Speznat

Senior Member
maybe they should make skill for fight pets take 500points and taming and creature control and herding are 100 and non combat skills best solution. most freedom for people who dont want to fight but want to have with a crafter 8 mules or whatever to transport shit.

noone ever said that every skill need to have max 100 points to master. other systems could be better for giving most freedomm and still be able to balance combat.
 

Speznat

Senior Member
They could make system were points and skill are unequally treated, wich would be perfect to abalcne combat skills and not combat skills that could be utlitlity for combat. in that way they can handle its seperated and balanced.

just like example
all combat skill points 2500
attacking with pets is 500
everyone have sprinitng free and shit.
extra weapon type 300
everone can swing a weapon a little so any weapon have 25 or soemthing as basic and can be depndend on race and age and so on.
stances agressive and defense like dont know 500
heavy armor 200 just an example.
and so on.

all crafting points 2500 points
Taming is 100
swimming everyone can swim a little bit in real life so dont know 30 points standart and if you put in the 70 extra youre olympics swimmer.
all armor crafting in general 500
bow 500
extraction and slag hauling 300
and so on.

just an example ultimate build freedom while remain balancing. they can nerf combat as fuck as they want and crafters and thier way of playing is untouched best for all. same the other way round.

and i swear by god if they start nerfing every weapon to death again i will be hard pissed.
I make pve and why do i have to use a other weapon type just because sv decided to nerf it to the ground because of pvp balance.

just implement a fucking system were when you nerf hsit that only the damage get reduced to players not AI. players and shit not PVE not fighting mobs. its so fuckign annoing to got witht he meta every 6 motnhs because sv fuck thier system over and fucks with builds 24/7 it makes me sometimes so angry. that stuff got for pve more and more unblaanced and than they nerf weapons and dura and made mobs harder.

i jsut say risar dungeon. never went back in after we died around 5 times with a group, that made risar dungeon in old time often. (it was easier)

Real danger should be PVP, not bugging mobs with op ranged attacks, and overpowered attacks that you got hit because of fuckign desync of animation and hit.

MO1 become mounted archer farming only because everything else is not possible sometimes. thats sad i loved to play with my greatblade in the old times on foot. until foot speed nerf and greatblade nerf.

oh man i could write 10 hours about this sv, but i guess henrik knows all this, he is not stupid.
 
Thread starter #20

Necromantic

Well-Known Member
My post illustrated the consequences of a system that has producers and consumers.
The producers will provide increasingly sub par goods the higher the barrier to entry in the market or in this case how much effort it takes to create a crafter.
No, what you were talking about is a game that didn't have "producers" to begin with because they all left as they game didn't offer anything to them.

Regardless, the game is being designed around 1 player and that is how a new player is expected to be able to play it.

But, as I said it will be much more limited anyway because there will be no f2p and only 1 character per paid account.

For around $30/month a player could have 8 subbed single pool characters after opening slots in MO1. If prices stay the same you would only get 1/4 (2)of the split pool characters at the same price. On top of that there will be no f2p option to have another 4 characters open a day.

So it will be way harder for one person to do everything for themselves even if single characters do more than in the past. Which should lead to more reliance on other players than there was in the past.

I personally believe single characters with split stats is a good change that will make single characters more playable. I also believe that it will improve the economy because players will be more depended on other players over all.

The real trick will be to get more players in the game. Which should work out better if the single character the game they bought allows them to play is not super gimped.
As I outlined in my last post. The problem isn't that they can do more, the problem is that there are separate pools which means choices and specialization mean a lot less and some aren't even choices anymore to begin with.

I like the separation of skillpoints and 1 character per account.
Being out mining on your extracter in MO1 and being atacked or being caught at the blast furnace extracting you only had one option: try to ride away. In MO2 you can actually fight for your life and goods. Or the other way around: You go to the tephra crater to mine and see someone mining there already. In Mo1 that meant "Ok hope he didnt see me, let me log over to my combat character that i have logged off close for this purpouse"
Also, a person will be more easily recognized as their one character and none of that guessing if thats one of X persons 8 alts.

As for specialization choices, i guess the race you choose will be a more important choice.
They could have done that with more points and synergies without removing meaningful choices. There are also other ways to prevent people logging between characters for things.

Depending on how much impact your clade has, or even in general some people like playing different playstyles and characters, it's honestly a meh decision to not allow people to play different kind of characters just because other people abuse it. And the separation of trade and combat skills is a really arbitrary one that only helps people that want a mix of those specific things, what about people that would want to combine other things or play different styles in other things like race, gender, height, whatever metric that you can't have variations of with one character. It's basically taking the roleplay out of the roleplaying game.

non combat, because they are no combat skills. or can you kill someone with thievery? or taming?

stuff like athletics, weapons, stance, feint, and other shit is combat. to be able to let animals attack should be a combat skill. and if you dont have that skil your pets cant attack.

swimming, hauling, taming, is no combat

i guess thats best solution. it gives more freedom and youre not limited like in MO1, to much limit is shit sv, thats why many mmo have a job system were you can master every job to max, you can learn all. because than you have access to mor econtent to play. I for myself never made an alchemist in MO1 but i wanted but i said to myself one char slot just for a fucking alchemist come on sv seriously. Advertising ultimate freedom in a game and giving exordinary much limits is not fun. limits are good but not to much. best example with extractor than you need one extra guy to gather the shit is just shit design sry.
So you're basically saying trade focused characters should have to sacrifice more than combat focused characters by making swimming and other basic survival skills fall under their skill pool while they could actually be more closely related to combat. Also why are athletics in general combat related?

At this point you may as well split it up in Trade/Survival/Combat, which would in effect make survival skills meaningless, just like any split up makes choices less meaningful and forces you to categorize everything to one side or the other whether it fits there or not.

SV basically needs a way better thought out skill system and as I said before more synergies between things and better defined advantages and disadvantages for different activities from all kinds of skills would work way better than any arbitrary split and categorization.

And, Domination is combat.
Domination in itself isn't really combat related either, just that it's a more meta aggressive form of taming. System wise in the past it's really just been the same as taming with slightly altered limitations.
 
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