Full Loot PvP- MO's Curse or Blessing?

Thread starter #61
It seems as though you have the presumption that MO or a game in the similar niche it occupies even has the capability to become a smash hit.

Can you point to another game similar to MO that is a smash hit?

As seb has said in the past, and i think accurately, if this niche was in such high demand why dont we see more games trying to occupy it? Or big time developers forcing their way into the market?

Theres a reason games like ESO and WoW arent full loot.

Edit: just for clarity, Im not saying full loot is bad or makes MO a bad game. In fact its why i love the game and think its the best out there.

But its definitely a limiting factor in its success in the market
We can't predict the future, why pretend it's less bright then it could be?
 
Number 1 and 2 on that list is accessibility.
Doesn't mean we have to dumb it down but we should introduce people into this game SLOWLY.
Ease them into the complexity, currently we are doing pretty much the opposite.

There's also a couple of things we have that is just..really unfriendly for new players.
Item don't show numbers,speed when starting out is kinda slow slow etc. But we are working on them..just takes time.

Just as a ok just as a question, how many of you actually think the tooltip as bars instead of numbers is good? Not interesting but that it adds to the game. Note that we are NOT AT ALL planning on removing that feature I'm just interested in knowing since royale removed it and it made the game a million times easier.
Having numbers would definetly help in making brokers more useful for new players. Ive told a bunch of them to buy gear from there but most of them are afraid of wasting their gold and cant tell which stuff is actually useful.
 
Just as a ok just as a question, how many of you actually think the tooltip as bars instead of numbers is good? Not interesting but that it adds to the game. Note that we are NOT AT ALL planning on removing that feature I'm just interested in knowing since royale removed it and it made the game a million times easier.
I have had to explain in help chat to nubs how the bars on their items work on many occasions. I dont necessarily think bars are a terrible idea, BUT, I think everyone should see the exact bars like on the broker and crafters. The double arrows thing serves no purpose in the end, it just makes it more complicated. The concept that a expert crafter can understand a weapon better is cool. But at the end of the day we all just learn what good bars look like and nubs buy junk cuz they dont understand, so it has a lot more loss than benefits in the end.

I'm not against numbers but they need to look like they were intended to be there. Bars with numbers like in MR looks kinda fishy. May be better with really easy to understand bars, or no bars and just numbers. But just my 2 cents. Numbers with the current bars would still be better than the current.
 
Great post, just seen it.

Well, it is not new that SV relays MO's lack of popularity to an appartent* issue with the game genre-style. We know many full loot games are classics or massively played like rust for example.

Yet i believe the core issues with MO are basically the development strategies and priorities.

Turns out that because of the development time that takes too long players prefer' "new content", even tho its not really deep nor organically attached to the rest of the already implemented mechanics, despite some of the great things introduced in the most recent magic schools patches other pieces of content took a long time to develop and turned out to be shallow as for the sole purpose was to grind then you have a basic concept flaw.

Take for example how housing system is, expensive and grindy modular' building mechanic and the only real challenge to access these features is grind grind grind, not challenging activities nor player interaction'. Took like almost a year to release that patch, which had not many more functions than the previous houses yet they serve as throphy stands.
I personally can't say grind in MO is good, its borderline pure tediousness, because of the AI and pathing mostly.

So, instead of developing a tool for GMs to access ingame information and control more the world by preventing dupes, cheats, hacks, and player losses. We see a Sarducaa that was broken for months, we see a failed steam release, we see a poorly developed housing system and never balanced magic schools, we see grind time as the definition of challenge.

Another thing i've never seen SV try is to properly move the game in social networks nor game sites, they have explicitely mentiones several times during the years (sebastian and henrik at least) that they never expected nor wanted to have a big/populated game and they didn't care about player retention since the hardcoreness of the game genre made it so difficult for MO.

I believe minimal strategies could have been taken as an insurance' in terms of development to release more complete and less clunky patches, regarding the real improvement of the game either by fixing stuff or releasing new things, not just create activities modules that came clunky as they could.

Sebastian talks about an over-complexity approach. I agree, some things have been since the core of the game more complex than they needed or were actually designed to be, for example crafting. For years with such a low versatility of different crafts for armor, weapons, bows etc, just now we can grasp a wannabe versatility with the vast amount of materials and items introduced in the game.

Then we see alchemy, which has a more complex design and its truly a more challenging escenario for exploring even tho the gathering is tedious AF. Still you find how the system works and the specific materials to make the potions and theres nothing else, no more organic search of new effects. Turns out to be something fixed in time with no new approach, no changes, variables are static.

Then you have cooking, which is absolutly broken. The game has appliances, and so so so many materials implemented, cooking skills and such yet theres like not many non complex meta recipes which are replaced by raw materials found in the world. Such as fishes for example.

Cooking has been introduced for a long time and it wasn't fixed nor made more challenging, appealing or even worth investing time into, its the reflection of how development is.

These things are just examples of how new things have been added and abandoned shortly after, maybe some had fixes like some crafting classes got balanced and introduced new features yet other things are stagnant pieces of shallow content. MO greatest and only challenge is grind time, aslong as thats the core of the game it can't really go anywhere.
 

Najwalaylah

Exalted Member
One thing I would ask for in regards to the UI if it is still the same, the damn scroll bars things, it would be nice for those to have notches instead of this free range bar. eg. bowcrafting.
Numbers will be a bad thing imo. It will turn into a numbers game and will remove any real theory crafting/testing and make things more meta much easier so that even the brand new player can see that x weapon does more damage that y.

That removes the mystery and desire to try everything.
Poor Godkin; you guys are so off-topic.

Also, a bar is just a certain number of pixels. At some resolution, it is a multiple of 100 (or whatever the significant figure would be) pixels. Doesn't that help?
Having numbers would definetly help in making brokers more useful for new players. Ive told a bunch of them to buy gear from there but most of them are afraid of wasting their gold and cant tell which stuff is actually useful.
I agree. But that's only true if Brokers are meant to be useful to both inexperienced buyers and sellers who want their trade. Maybe the Vision for MO includes a lot of uncertainty and disappointment. DEVvP?
 

AidanKyros

Well-Known Member
Having numbers would definetly help in making brokers more useful for new players. Ive told a bunch of them to buy gear from there but most of them are afraid of wasting their gold and cant tell which stuff is actually useful.
or a way to know if a seller is good or bad would be a cool feature, a way to become known as a good equipment seller without using the forums.
 

AidanKyros

Well-Known Member
Poor Godkin; you guys are so off-topic.

Also, a bar is just a certain number of pixels. At some resolution, it is a multiple of 100 (or whatever the significant figure would be) pixels. Doesn't that help?
I agree. But that's only true if Brokers are meant to be useful to both inexperienced buyers and sellers who want their trade. Maybe the Vision for MO includes a lot of uncertainty and disappointment.
DEVvP?
If I need a 3rd party tool or guess work to count the pixels, that is just plain bad design.
 

Najwalaylah

Exalted Member
If I need a 3rd party tool or guess work to count the pixels, that is just plain bad design.
I don't know if that's bad or good, but it's like having maps in-game: you could consider a lack of them to be bad design, :( or immersive o_O, or a goad toward coming up with 'other maps' :cool: and using third party tools (like your browser) to have a look at them :rolleyes:.

It sort of never has mattered what players want in the game :mad: as much as what SV, from the CEO and actual DM on down, wants in the game.:eek:
 

MolagAmur

Well-Known Member
Thats a good point. There is already an emulator that shows the numbers on weapons on armor...so I guess it wouldn't be that bad to have it in game. Prepare to see a lot of armors and weapons deemed useless though bc they aren't "meta".

Its like damage meters in games. Once they are added it becomes whatever class is best and which abilites do the most damage, rather than everyone just having a good time and playing whats fun.
 

AidanKyros

Well-Known Member
I think there is a fine line on this topic, notches on the craft bench, allowing ppl to make maps in game or shitty imperfect maps that you can hold in your hands or open from your inventory are good ideas imo, a permanent map, and numbers on gear is too far imo but it wouldn't make the game worse.
 
Full loot PvP is a blessing. Let me explain this in a very short summary why this is a blessing.

I personally like to roleplay (call me a nerd if you want, I enjoy learning about the lore of games, movies, books, shows, etc.) So when I make a character I give said character an aesthetic, a personality. They play a certain way, act a certain way. Does that mean I talk differently, or change the way my voice sounds? Not at all. I just adapt my playstyle to the 'theme' of the character. Simple as that.

Compare this to a game like World of Warcraft. When I make a character on there, and design them from the ground up with their backstory, theme, attire, all the bells and whistles - there is one thing that I find is lacking. Consequences. To give an example. Someone on WoW during RP could attack my character, and I could respond accordingly. However if they find my response unreasonable, unfair, or they just refuse to accept it. Guess what they can do.. That's right! They can just /ignore me or just walk away - voiding ANYTHING ever happening.

How does this measure up against Mortal Online? Well, if someone attacks me.. I can punish them. I have an actual risk of losing something - so does the person who attacked me. There are consequences for actions. If I don't like someone, I can kill them. Anywhere, anytime. I can loot their items (if any). Anywhere, anytime (except the tindrem arena I suppose. But even then there are ways to get loot out of there..)

Point being. I play Mortal Online to immerse my self in the game, even if I run around and act like an idiot. But having the consequences smack me in the face for my actions, or being able to punish someone for something they said or did to me; is very rewarding. Roleplay restricted to just chat doesn't allow that.

TL;DR
Full loot PvP is a blessing. If you do wrong unto me, I can do wrong unto you. Vice versa. There are ACTUAL consequences. No walking away.
 
I like the sliders and bars as it is now, as some have said it adds to the mystery and skill-based knowledge.

Also, if it became just numbers the Compare Item ability would become somewhat useless.
 
Having numbers would definetly help in making brokers more useful for new players. Ive told a bunch of them to buy gear from there but most of them are afraid of wasting their gold and cant tell which stuff is actually useful.
Items on the trade broker would show their actual values on the sliders I believe, and is not subject to any ambiguity like when you hold the said item in your inventory.
 
Thread starter #74
When I think of important changes to MO that can lead it towards success, I'm challenged by the idea of numbers vs bars being a significant contributing factor.
Even symbolically, representations of complexity aren't nearly as important as the richness of content. @Sebastian Persson What does it take for a game like this to succeed, is there anything else that comes to mind? Describe what could be.

Sometimes it feels like MO was designed to be an airplane and it's being driven around like a car. What do we need these wings for anyway?
 
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Having numbers would definetly help in making brokers more useful for new players. Ive told a bunch of them to buy gear from there but most of them are afraid of wasting their gold and cant tell which stuff is actually useful.
The trading concept about players selling services by the use of npcs is one of the greatest player tools in MO, sadly the game doesn't really encourage players to produce stuff to sell.
The only way the trading circle can work is if enough people produce the basic materials needed to craft, for that to work you need a material flow directed-guided by the player base.

Due to the design of the game it is more convenient to have several accounts with several crafters/farming characters and aim for self sustainability which many and most players do over time.

Those issues wouldn't be a problem if MO's population was greater in numbers.

I've produced and made massive amounts of potions that have been sold in the past, it turns out that if you can't find someone to sell you the materials required at a relevant price you just can't compete in the market nor expect selling the products to be worth the time. Alchemy is one of the greatest example tho, the most tedious crafting class concerning materials farming (maybe after extractor of course).

Then you can allways farm everything yourself yet the time invested ain't worth the actuall product price.

I agree with Seb concerning the learning curve of nublets. But "how" can you balance the game for noobs, which ain't. Basically by giving starter materials and activities a higher role in crafting by repurposing materials and generating a higher market flow.
That can be made by tweaking already implemented features and crafting classes, just give shitty materials a purpose. That has been one of the biggest issues in this game, 90% of the materials found in the world are useless.

And of course, reworking the shitty arse broker UI...
If theres something SV dudes need to explore or study' is how to create more intuitive UI's and proper tutorials. Kinda embarrassing this is just being evaluated so many years after the release.
 
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Finnley

Senior Member
Numbers will be a bad thing imo. It will turn into a numbers game and will remove any real theory crafting/testing and make things more meta much easier so that even the brand new player can see that x weapon does more damage that y.

That removes the mystery and desire to try everything.
I disagree, in my opinion the numbers do not really tell you if a weapon is viable, its mainly determined by swing arc, range, stamina drain and animation. Stuff you still have to test.
Once you figured out what weapon types work for you then the numbers just make it easier to identify the used materials and if that combination is any good.
From a pure numbers standpoint some ridicilous skadite weapon would be the best.
 

MolagAmur

Well-Known Member
I disagree, in my opinion the numbers do not really tell you if a weapon is viable, its mainly determined by swing arc, range, stamina drain and animation. Stuff you still have to test.
Once you figured out what weapon types work for you then the numbers just make it easier to identify the used materials and if that combination is any good.
From a pure numbers standpoint some ridicilous skadite weapon would be the best.
Well...no because the skadite would weight a shit ton. But I get your point. I still dont like it.
 
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