Hardcore MMO's: What could they do better?

Thread starter #1
The title is pretty self explanatory.

I'm basically curious what people think hardcore mmo's could do potentially better. Examples of some are..

Darkfall, Mortal Online, Eve Online, Runescape (to an extent), even UO back in it's day or the private 'shards' that have popped up.

Please provide some reasoning to your idea.

I'll start.

I feel like hardcore mmo's could benefit from more focus on the foundation of mechanics that make it what it is, than trying to add more content that is either abstract from the idea or only really adds 'momentary fluff'.
 

Bicorps

Trial Member
Well mortal is a good example of a fail. They stopped work on the "Core" Foundation of the game to add more and more content that dont reflect the game vision at all.

I think they start to fucktop at Sarducca release. Instead of refining the main land(myrland) they already had. they preferred add another map which I think was a big Mistake. There is also a loading screen when you pass Sarducca bridge. Which is against the game Vision that was write on the website, "No Loading Full open World".

They also added content that was not skill base, end game "Classe" that is overpower like Necromancy or Elementalist. These class should be like all the other, easy to train and balanced.

They added unlootable gear to the game which is also against a hardcore Full loot PvP game. I think they started at the Mage Patch with the MageBook. I dont really care about that Spell-book because with the actual mechanic if it was loot able.. you could lost over 5000g which is crazy. But when you think about a MountedCombat or Foot Fighter full Ogh gear and shit it worth like 2000g and have no resist at all against magic. You to judge if its fair or not.

But the worst about the unlootable stuff is certainly the Jewelry Patch. You have to spend a crazy amount of gold to charge your Jewels... and they dont drops. Its a big gold sink that go in the matrix and never go back in the game. It also give a big advantage to who ever use it. This kind of unfair mechanic just sux.... at least make the "Charge" drop or something.

I could go on all day long with things like this
All that to say YES... the Core of the game is the most important... like when they reworked magic it was a step forward even if most people didn't like it at the beginning because of the d-sync/register but we get use to it real quick by making people run toward you when they needed heals/purify.

PS: Its a fail yes but we still have enjoyed our time on this game even if we had to pass true a lot of bug/broken mechanic/unbalanced and other crap.
The game have an actually story that we all made and been part of . im pretty sure most of us will remember it for long time.
 
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Ever since playing MO I’ve had this notion in my head that the game permits modalities of behavior that are far more permissive than most other games, with the added thrill on top that it’s always another person and not computer AI on the other end. This is different from even FPS casual gaming.

Thus, I’m pretty sure MO is a magnet for aberrant psychology. In no other game or MMO I’ve ever played over the years - and I’ve played a lot - no community has as deeply toxic personalities as MO. Now don’t get me wrong, I’ve also met some of the BEST gamers here too, but MO’s nature pulls in the very bad too.

Here in America the topic of mass violence is high on peoples minds, and people are always asking questions like ‘why didn’t someone say something.’ It usually boils down to the fact that no one had an avenue to do so or the pleas were ignored.

By making a game like this, I therefore submit that Starvault has a greater than average responsibility to observe its player base for people such as this, because I would not be surprised if you can find them here, living out their catharsis. How? F if I know, but it’s still a relevant issue.

Ethics in game making, a new college course.
 
Thread starter #5
Thanks for all the feedback. Would love to hear more from others.
 
a good start for an hardcore mmo would be to implement all the features they have promised for Chronicles of Elyria. without escaping with the money.
 

Luminia

Trial Member
useless skill progression... i think pretty much most hardcore mmos fall into this pit. Grinding out skills that are useless before max is horrible game design imo. For example: walking, breathing technique in mo. Whats the point? A skill to grind up for hardcore sake i guess... but not a fun grind in anyway and in no point enriching the gameplay experience its actually having a very bad impact on the experience, for no good reason besides beeing so hardcore.

If its nit fun to do the grind it should be revisited and become a fun activity. If a skill is uncompetetive until the maxed stage it should be rebalanced and the grind has to be short depending on how important it is.

If a skill is mandatory then it should be the fastest to get. Everything extra that gives a slight edge can be grinded for and the grind has to be in a fun way.

I think this comes down to lazy game design balancing.

Oh and wait timer... fuck those big time. Waiting is not playing the game.
 

ThaBadMan

Exalted Member
Build the game hardcore, stay hardcore through and through and DONT cave to players wanting to make it less hardcore through their suggestions. Dont buck to gain players by alienating your loyal playerbase like MO did time and time again.

MO went from a hardcore solid game to a softcore themepark version of it through bad players crying and whining that the game was too hard.

Stick to your principles and make it how you originally promised it would be. Dont cave and start to spew shitty excuses.
 

Necromantic

Well-Known Member
Realize that people that want nothing but PvP are the biggest care bears in the end. :p
 
I think MO declined bc they spread out their resources too much to keep everyone happy while only having a limited amount of resources (not enough). They launched with a unstable product and trying to fix these issues stopped/halted the evolution of the game which it so much needed.
Then there is all the side effects.. Like the discussion of wolves vs. sheep, badly implemented features, game breaking issues existing for way too long, etc etc

Darkfall 1 and 2 failed bc of the grind imo. Fun combat system tho
 
MO went from a hardcore solid game to a softcore themepark version of it through bad players crying and whining that the game was too hard.
Wait, are you describing MO as a Softcore Theme park MMO? I'm confused... Isn't it a full loot, open pvp, sandbox style game still? How is it a themepark now?
 

Golt

Trial Member
Wait, are you describing MO as a Softcore Theme park MMO? I'm confused... Isn't it a full loot, open pvp, sandbox style game still? How is it a themepark now?
i think "softcore themepark game" is a bit of an exaggeration, but MO sure became less hardcore over the years, mainly through walled pallisades, personal NPCs that fight for you and easier, safer gold farming methods...
 

ThaBadMan

Exalted Member
Wait, are you describing MO as a Softcore Theme park MMO? I'm confused... Isn't it a full loot, open pvp, sandbox style game still? How is it a themepark now?
Try reading next time.

I said MO went from hardcore to a softcore themepark version of it. As in dumbed down, safe zones, afk money making in safety, slow combat, ress without statloss, ETC, ETC, ETC.

Yes it kept mostly full loot, mostly open PvP and sandbox aint really softcore or hardcore feature tbh. How is it not closer to themepark than old MO without those lacks ? For gods sake players got to make their OWN personal guardzones...
 
Try reading next time.

I said MO went from hardcore to a softcore themepark version of it. As in dumbed down, safe zones, afk money making in safety, slow combat, ress without statloss, ETC, ETC, ETC.

Yes it kept mostly full loot, mostly open PvP and sandbox aint really softcore or hardcore feature tbh. How is it not closer to themepark than old MO without those lacks ? For gods sake players got to make their OWN personal guardzones...
So my understanding of a theme park MMORPG and you are more then welcome to correct me if I'm wrong, but to put it simply, it means a "content driven MMORPG". It constantly needs new quests, new areas, new mobs, new loot, because that is what the endgame is mostly relying on. That is why its called themepark, because if the developers don't keep updating the game with more stuff, the game gets boring fast. The opposite of a themepark, to my understanding, is a sandbox. But this is all just semantics now, I understand your meaning and agree.

But yeah, I can't disagree with you about what is probably unintended game design mistakes as seems to happen quite often. They even admit to some of them being unintended. We can only hope they are more careful in their game design in MO2.
 
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ThaBadMan

Exalted Member
So my understanding of a theme park MMORPG and you are more then welcome to correct me if I'm wrong, but to put it simply, it means a "content driven MMORPG". It constantly needs new quests, new areas, new mobs, new loot, because that is what the endgame is mostly relying on. That is why its called themepark, because if the developers don't keep updating the game with more stuff, the game gets boring fast. The opposite of a themepark, to my understanding, is a sandbox. But this is all just semantics now, I understand your meaning and agree.

But yeah, I can't disagree with you about what is probably unintended game design mistakes as seems to happen quite often. They even admit to some of them being unintended. We can only hope they are more careful in their game design in MO2.
True enough, although as you say its semantics and our opinion on what MMORPGs fall under themepark cause to be fair MO also needed a fresh stream of content in order to live the lifespan it has lived.
If MO was released as it was released and never gotten more content, it would not be here today.

New rides is sadly needed for any MMORPG these days atleast until the true sandbox comes fully developed at release never to be worked on again with only players building within it, but I dont see that coming anytime soon, and if it does it wont have many players playing for a long period of time. Its simply human nature to destroy what we get and such a game would imo not be a good place to gain enjoyment from. Strictly speaking not even patches should be built for a true sandbox like the one we all probably started playing in in kindergarden.
 

Necromantic

Well-Known Member
The problem with breeding just like with the NPC player stores etc. is that it was mostly automatic, set it up and wait for a timer to finish, no player interaction needed. Nothing inherently wrong with the idea of having any of those systems in general.
If you had to actually breed the animals, have them grazing, protect them, feed them, more general involvement that would change the entire system and make it more of a risk and effort vs. reward thing.
Player NPC stores are okay, they are just hard to balance, because the balance resolves entirely around the game community and most communities nowadays just value convenience too much. There are some ways to make it more expensive or harder to use requiring more interaction but that usually doesn't work that well either.
 
No single game can have everything to make every player happy. MO was originally something that made the devlopers happy. They made the game they wanted. And then, the players started making influence on the decisions because that was revenue for the developers to live off of. This is normal. MO and other Hardcore games need to find a way to stay to their core, as well as make players happy in such a way as to make money. One thing they can do is work on balance. One - let me repeat that - ONE of the things I hear from new players is that the game is seriously unbalanced... with DK and Necromancy and armors that are way better than others... it just makes it such a commitment to get to where you can change the game from a gear+skill points system of winning to a skill based system of winning. New players are needed to make a game successful. I think MO was a success. It lasted 10 years and is now becoming a new evolution as MO2. I have been playing since 2014 and I will continue to play as long as the game hits all them cues that I want... High risk/High Reward, exploration, community, and even though it takes a commitment, the game feels like progress is made at the end of the day... or I rage quit and try again tomorrow.
I don't know exactly what it is that makes me come back other than I haven't really found any other game quite like it. I've played Darkfall, and UO and runescape-- some of the titles that other people say MO is similar to. Yea, sorta... kinda, not really though.
 
Rather than focus on gameplay and content, I would like to comment on marketing.

There are some people who just are not suited to a full loot PvP game. They like their stuff too much. They want to build pretty things and look at them. They are not the market at all.

There are some people who just love combat, just the fighting. They want to gear up quick and get in the action. They are not the main market.

The central market are people who see the potential of sandbox games and just want to be there, doing their stuff. I played the game first in or about 2012, when Wessex was here and a bunch of other people. There were the Russians, down in the jungle, and various others that I don't recall as my brain is damaged by years of hard drugs. People used to congregate in front of Moh-ki and taunt us Wessex folk. They'd think of all sorts of strategies to get us out of the guard zone, and occasionally we would even present for a full on fight. These seemed like massive, tense battles, running over the hills, trying to cut people off, trying to escape with your life. They were brilliant days. Yet the game was clearly borked. I mean, many mechanics just did not work. So many people were glitching into palisades, working out scams etc etc etc. And so gradually, people said 'stuff it'. I remember people in teamspeak wailing because 'all that work went to waste because of a broken mechanic'. And so numbers dwindled.

THESE are the people we need and want. I don't PvP, other than in those large battles that never happen any more, and unless you call running and hiding PvP. I'm happy these days moseying about, exploring, trying out new things, and I'm lucky to have found a few players that will help me explore the new TC mechanics, which are just fantastic. They are what people were crying out for 8 years ago, and what the Devs were promising too. Looks like they delivered in spades. This game, in its maturity, is just amazing. It is the game for me, farmer, trader, crafter, empire builder.

So my point is that if you advertise a game as 'hard core', you get players who believe they are 'hard core'. Mostly, these are children because adults have usually worked out that there is always someone better than you, and that hard core is another way of saying hard work. People who fancy themselves as 'hard core' are not fun to be around. I don't want to tell SV how to suck eggs, but it would be good to know that marketing is a focus, including building profiles of your ideal player base as market testing how to ID and attract those different sorts of ideal players. Also, don't go Anime or that fucking manga shit. I don't care what your marketing says, DON'T DO IT.

I am confident that the SV team knows how to build a game. I'm behind you. I've stumped up my cash. I look forward to a brilliant experience in MO2.
 
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