Mortal Online 2?

Can you please explain what the look has to do with MMO networking.
I understand that on a bad computer streaming archives a better graphical look, than a local computer.
But I don't get it how the look correlates with MMO networking.
I guess the main reason why people are oposing Stadia is because they don't seem to understand what I wrote countless times about networking.
Let me quote myself:


The classical bottleneck of every online game is the fact, that your bandwidth requirements with every player and object increase exponentially.

Let´s say you have an online game and each player generates data of 1 mb/s.

With 2 players, each player needs to download data about the other player, so it´s for every player 1 mb/s to download and for the server 2 mb/s to upload.

With 10 players, each player needs to download 9 mb/s and the server needs to upload 90 mb/s

With 100 players, each player needs to download 99 mb/s and the server needs to upload 9900 mb/s

Now with Google Stadia, for a stream of 23 mb/s and 100 players, each player needs to download 23mb/s and the server needs to upload 2300 mb/s


And then take into account, that a game world not only has player, but thousands of objects, npcs, etc.

With stadia, the amount of objects, physics, players and so on is just limited by the upload capabilities and processing power of the server.
And these are the best of the world (Every instance on Stadia has more processing power than the current Xbox and PlayStation combined)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_complexity

Like the Guild Wars 2 Developer stated Server-Client-Architecture is O(n^2)

That means if you need 100 messages for 10 Players you need 10.000 messages for 100 players and for 1000 players you'll need 1000.000 messages.
It goes up exponentially


Streaming is in O(n)

If you have 10 players you have 230mb/s
100 players 2300mb/s and so on.

It goes up linear.


That's why you can't do more with streaming in regards to networking


Why? Because the game runs without Server? Stadia just hosts the Client. SV still needs a Server.
You won with the Steam comment, but lost with that one.
Google hosts the servers, that's why you pay money in order to use it.
 

Speznat

Senior Member
(Every instance on Stadia has more processing power than the current Xbox and PlayStation combined)
And you think that google would run the MO game server for free?? or what?
do you forgot that the game still needs to be hostet somewhere or what?

and second my rasberry pi 4 have more power than a shitty Xbox or ps4.
dont start with this console shit, even a gtx 760 have more power than a fucking xbox.
and a 100euro 980ti have much more power than a ps4.

xbox is like gameboy
ps4 is like gameboy colordont start this shit discussion.


Were is the net code hostet from mortal? it need a place.

Stadia make sense, Hosting with Stadia make sense, but as if google wouldn't charge for that.
 

Speznat

Senior Member
I guess the main reason why people are oposing Stadia is because they don't seem to understand what I wrote countless times about networking.
Let me quote myself:




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_complexity

Like the Guild Wars 2 Developer stated Server-Client-Architecture is O(n^2)

That means if you need 100 messages for 10 Players you need 10.000 messages for 100 players and for 1000 players you'll need 1000.000 messages.
It goes up exponentially


Streaming is in O(n)

If you have 10 players you have 230mb/s
100 players 2300mb/s and so on.

It goes up linear.


That's why you can't do more with streaming in regards to networking




You won with the Steam comment, but lost with that one.
Google hosts the servers, that's why you pay money in order to use it.
friend of mine played mortal online with a mobile connection from a smartphone with a caped 32kbit connection fluid.
his name is tony mortal is in that optimized just check your send and get packages its not much loook at battelfield mortal in nothing compared.
 

Yeonan

Trial Member
I guess the main reason why people are oposing Stadia is because they don't seem to understand what I wrote countless times about networking.
I'd agree that if Stadia is as advertised it would be a better solution from a technical standpoint.

But that still doesn't get around the market share problem.

How many people will buy in to Stadia after year 1? year 2? etc.

Maybe 10 years from now if everyone has Stadia just like they do a YouTube account it would make sense. But right now? SV would be retarded to put more barriers in front of their niche game.

And that's not even considering SV's less than stellar reputation.

"Hey guy's come play this shiny new MO2, all you need to do is spend $130 on a service, plus $10 a month, on top of the cost of the game (and likely sub). Trust us it's better than MO1 where 90% of the population quit due to bugs/design decisions."

You see why that's not a good selling point for SV, right?
 
I'd agree that if Stadia is as advertised it would be a better solution from a technical standpoint.

But that still doesn't get around the market share problem.

How many people will buy in to Stadia after year 1? year 2? etc.

Maybe 10 years from now if everyone has Stadia just like they do a YouTube account it would make sense. But right now? SV would be retarded to put more barriers in front of their niche game.

And that's not even considering SV's less than stellar reputation.

"Hey guy's come play this shiny new MO2, all you need to do is spend $130 on a service, plus $10 a month, on top of the cost of the game (and likely sub). Trust us it's better than MO1 where 90% of the population quit due to bugs/design decisions."

You see why that's not a good selling point for SV, right?
It depends on Star Vaults financial situation.
If they go bankrupt next year, when they won't release MO2 you are right.
If they can develop MO2 for another 2 years and wantit to succeed for the next 10 years there is no other choice but to release it on Stadia.
Because the following will happen:

If Star Vault won't develop MO2 on Stadia it won't last 10 years like MO did.
Somebody will develop an hardcore full loot MMO on Stadia at some point.
And if that happens, all the other MMOs will disapear for sure, because compared to what that MMO is able to achieve they will look like 80ies Atari games.
 
You were making some sense to me up to this point.
What are they doing with billions and billions of dollars?
They are hiring the most qualified human beings on this planet and give them a shitload of money to solve problems nobody has ever solved.
It's simple
 
What are they doing with billions and billions of dollars?
You sound like someone who has never heard a landlord (as they are grandiosely termed in English) ask a tenant why, if the tenant is so smart, don't they own a building. This experience tends to reduce one's appreciation of the ability to make "lotsa money", especially when (as is too common) the landlord is actually in violation of some law or guilty of some tort.

Google as a corporate entity (under the umbrella corp. of Alphabet) is, to be sure, a very effective financial predator. It is powerful and knows much (and always wants to know more) about us. It built a barrel and we are the fish. (Sorry for the Anglophone idiom.)

I am sure they hire the most qualified human beings available to do their will, including solving problems that might not have been problems to anyone who didn't work for Google. It's okay that you're a fan of theirs. It would be interesting to know if you work for any part of their empire or vassals. If you did, that would explain so much about your enthusiasm for IT.
 
Like the Guild Wars 2 Developer stated Server-Client-Architecture is O(n^2)

That means if you need 100 messages for 10 Players you need 10.000 messages for 100 players and for 1000 players you'll need 1000.000 messages.
It goes up exponentially


Streaming is in O(n)

If you have 10 players you have 230mb/s
100 players 2300mb/s and so on.

It goes up linear.


That's why you can't do more with streaming in regards to networking
Your statement about the network traffic is only valid for all players within view range/render distance. Outside of this render distance player A does not need to know about the same messages as player B. It is only required for rare global events like a meteor is dropping from the sky.

And also let's be realistic: 23mb/s => 23.552kb/s => 24.117.248b/s => 3.014.656B/s
If text is represented in ASCII ( = 1Byte) that's 3.014.656 characters per Second. That's a hell lot of data! Should be sufficient do describe the position, movements and actions of thousands of (dynamic) objects => static objects would be saved local anyways in the map file.
 
You sound like someone who has never heard a landlord (as they are grandiosely termed in English) ask a tenant why, if the tenant is so smart, don't they own a building. This experience tends to reduce one's appreciation of the ability to make "lotsa money", especially when (as is too common) the landlord is actually in violation of some law or guilty of some tort.

Google as a corporate entity (under the umbrella corp. of Alphabet) is, to be sure, a very effective financial predator. It is powerful and knows much (and always wants to know more) about us. It built a barrel and we are the fish. (Sorry for the Anglophone idiom.)

I am sure they hire the most qualified human beings available to do their will, including solving problems that might not have been problems to anyone who didn't work for Google. It's okay that you're a fan of theirs. It would be interesting to know if you work for any part of their empire or vassals. If you did, that would explain so much about your enthusiasm for IT.

I am not smart enough to work for Google ;P
Worked with their frameworks and follow what they are doing in AI.
 
Your statement about the network traffic is only valid for all players within view range/render distance. Outside of this render distance player A does not need to know about the same messages as player B. It is only required for rare global events like a meteor is dropping from the sky.

And also let's be realistic: 23mb/s => 23.552kb/s => 24.117.248b/s => 3.014.656B/s
If text is represented in ASCII ( = 1Byte) that's 3.014.656 characters per Second. That's a hell lot of data! Should be sufficient do describe the position, movements and actions of thousands of (dynamic) objects => static objects would be saved local anyways in the map file.
Sure, that's why we have so many dynamic objects with real time physics in so many MMOs...
Or can you name me one that is able to achieve that?
 
So a quick update for MO 2 unless I've missed it in this thread.

MO2 website is to launch in December. Soon after a beta version will be available.

A nice little Christmas present aye?
 

Xunila

Cronite Supporter
So a quick update for MO 2 unless I've missed it in this thread.

MO2 website is to launch in December. Soon after a beta version will be available.

A nice little Christmas present aye?
The beta part could come a long time after the website. In 2018 they said the newb island would come some time after Christmas. While it was technically true, it was almost a year after the referenced holiday.
 

Xunila

Cronite Supporter
The beta part could come a long time after the website. In 2018 they said the newb island would come some time after Christmas. While it was technically true, it was almost a year after the referenced holiday.
And the public beta of MO1 started about one year before release.
 
EVE Online? Guild Wars 2 World vs World?
I guess you don't know what I meant by real time physics, since these games don't have any.

Both games have a combat system, that has no hit detection. Weither you hit the enemy is just calculated by a function that takes range and a random chance into account. There are no objects with physical properties interacting with each other.
If your ship in EVE shoots a rocket to another ship and a third ship flies in the way of the rocket, the rocket won't hit the third ship. This is not calculated.
And even though the calculations are by modern standards very simple, EVE still needs time dilation for larger battles:

https://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Time_dilation

The reason for time dilation is the reason I described to you. The server load increases exponentially with the number of players.

A game that implemented real time physical interactions very well is PlanetSide 2. But for the cost of persistence. There is no lasting interaction with the game world and it plays more like a bigger version of battlefield.
 
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