Mounted Lessons from Royale

Thread starter #1
Royale is a breath of fresh air. For those that joined Mortal Online after the Mount Patch, it's a look similar to how the game was in the past.

A few things stand out almost immediately:

Most mounts have significantly lower hit points
Most mounts move significantly slower
Mounts stopping time is much longer
Most mounts turn radius is much broader
Mount armor is rare, and most mounts have significantly less defense


How it plays:

Mounts become situationally epic. Chasing someone down on a donkey moving only slightly faster than the player's run speed, even though it's going to take you a full 15 seconds to stop or turn if he changes direction, and knowing that if he turned to attack your donkey, it would splatter, feels exciting. Mounts get killed in the exchange with most players, providing some advantage to riders, but in no way ensures victory. Often mounted retreat after losing exchanges to well-timed and placed attacks.


MO Status Quo:

This is not how mounted combat feels in MO. Either you have the one right mount, the one right maxed build, the one right weapon or you will be dismounted (stunned and unable to actually ride) repeatedly and killed by the person that does have the meta. In this way, the balance attempts have played towards meta builds. Every one of the limiting factors for mounts above have been mitigated due to the breeding system.

The best mount has the highest hp, the fastest speed, the best turn radius, the highest defense, and stops immediately.
The best weapon does the highest damage, dismounts, and requires as much/or little stamina as most other weapons.
Dismount is a purchased skill. A gear based skill that cost one Tindremic Messing Sledge and it's extremely overpowered. (If Overhead strike had a 100% knockdown chance with a Tindremic Messing Sledge, I don't imagine it would be in game long)


Some thoughts on how to address this:

I've given this a lot of thought over the years and I think these steps would align the breeding system (which is awesome) with what is fun to play, and actually much more realistic to the real world.

1. Increase the Strength attribute cost in the mount stat pool to 2x that of all other stats. So a fully maxed strength mount would be the same as having two other attributes maxed.
2. Increase the cost of HP in the stat pool by 50%. The higher the HP, the less overall stats available for your mount. The previous steps in this direction were good but not far enough.
3. Reduce the minimum strength bred mounts can have to 10 (some low level mounts spawn with 10 strength). At 10, the mount is unrideable, but would have the most stats available for other attributes due to the stat caps. This would create a dynamic system were the strength would be adjusted according to the weight, inventory, and carrying needs of the rider.
4. Revert the threshold dismount system and return to the RNG dismount for all damage types. Allow KD resist, blocking, and mount stats to impact the chance for dismount that scales with damage. Low damage, low chance of dismount, high damage higher chance. No dismount chance should ever equal 0%, or 100%. The exception to this being EQ.

The results of this:

The highest hp mounts would not be the fastest.
High protection, high carry capacity = heavy armor, heavy weapon mounts would not be the fastest
A high quality tamed mount would be competitive - a good spread of stats, just not specialized

These four changes would create uncertainty on the battlefield. Remove the gear=iwin button, people will have a chance to fight back and win due to their skill, not because they can afford a Dismount button, which is what creates excitement. Also restore taming to a valuable place.

This is not a panacea and not meta-friendly, but it would work I think, and make mounted much more enjoyable for all parties involved. Love to hear your thoughts.
 

Roranicus

Junior Member
@Herius, @all of SV Please, please, please, give us the mounted combat from MR in MO. The population is rising again and as it does the problem of too many too OP mounteds is rising again as well. At very least nerf sledgehammers as a first step. It is ridiculous to get hit for 30+ with 100 points in blocking while wearing good armor.
 
Am letting my sub run out. State of the game just isnt good and pop is too low to let it slide. I cant find anyone, and when I do its just a bottom tier mounted player in max gear on a full gearbased maxed 125 bull that gets away 1 hit cuz it has over double the hp it should.

There is nothing fun about anything related to mounted. You either insta kill them / mount or they ride off. Or you get liek 2 shot. It isnt fun.

And I'm not unsubbing just cuz mounted. I'm just sick of never getting the balance I've been waiting forever for and not even getting any half decent pvp to make up for it. In the past 2 subs I can count the amount of fights I've had on my hands And only like 2 of them were actually decent. If we had steam launch numbers I'd put up with the garbage cuz I can at least still have fun but now I waste a ton of time and have not fun fights more often than fun ones.

And if mounted doesnt get nerfed it will just kill the pop more. Mounted roams just slaughter nubs with virtually 0 possible counter play. And as pop goes up theres more mounted roams.

Honestly mounted should be tamed mounts only and weapons no better than spw handle axes. I troll around on tamed mounts and they are plenty viable v foot. If mounted players quit at this point it doesnt matter, they will be replaced by other players who like skillbased combat.
 
Why doesn't mortal make mounts like it used to be, you'd ride into combat do some damage get dismounted and fight on foot well. Instead of running away when low on a mount heal with a wheelchair build and go back in to destroy for 100+ damage.... Honestly why should mounteds do more damage than foot players with all the advantages they have from the mount (Gameplay wise, please no "Well IRL!") Make them have to use light weapons and if they get parried on mount while using heavy weapons they get dismounted.
 
Its prob whats best for the game but SV is too afraid to upset the breeding community, alot of them where crying and threatening to quit after that tiny hp nerf...
 
Thread starter #6
Its prob whats best for the game but SV is too afraid to upset the breeding community, alot of them where crying and threatening to quit after that tiny hp nerf...
That HP nerf was dumb. It doesn't address the issue. Balance through making everything uniform is not honoring the complex design of this game, so I can understand the frustration. However, something like this would be incredibly lucrative for people in the business of selling bred horses, and also tamers.

There would be no one mount to rule them all. Diversity makes for a good market. Each rider could benefit from a mount specific for their build and needs. For example, if a player wants to weild a 8kg hammer, wear 24kg of armor, have 10kg horse armor, and have an inventory full of back up weapons, and loot, his horse will need a certain amount of strength that will reduce it's maxed speed. Imagine a heavy calvary rider that is anti-infantry, with a strong tanky horse with as much speed as can be achieved while having sufficient strength.

Another rider might want 10kg of armor, no horse armor, and be okay with no loot carrying capacity. This mount would be capable of much faster speeds, and would be much easier to kill. Imagine a light calvary, with a thoroughbred race horse. Low strength, all the points dumped into speed and dex.

That is the trade off from the pre-Mount patch days. That's how nearly every other system in the game works. That's how it works in reality.

And each of these mounts could be bred by well informed and active breeders. Breeders could specialize in each of the areas. Maybe some breed racehorses, some bred warhorses. That's a good market place where what you do matters.

It would also allow tamers to have a bigger market as there would be many people that just want a good enough horse that is well-rounded rather than specialized. If the dismount threshold is reverted, mounts become much less important overall, as it's not dismount or die. They become utility again, and tamers meet that low investement utility role.
 
What you want is pretty much achieved by removing breeding. Tamed mounts are balanced. Desert are fast weak. Stepe have decent str while still having decent dext and speed. Jotun more tank. Bull super tank bad speed and dext.

Breeding has virtually 0 upsides for gameplay. While it is in the game there will always be min max op best mounts.
 
Thread starter #8
What you want is pretty much achieved by removing breeding. Tamed mounts are balanced. Desert are fast weak. Stepe have decent str while still having decent dext and speed. Jotun more tank. Bull super tank bad speed and dext.

Breeding has virtually 0 upsides for gameplay. While it is in the game there will always be min max op best mounts.
Good points. Let's see if I can address them.

1. Removing systems isn't the way forward. We may just disagree about complexity over simplicity, and that's okay. Some people see everything they have to do other than pvp as not the game, but some chore to do before playing. I think Royale will be a great place for those folks to get what they want. I see the entire game world as part of the overall game experience, so it's important to my enjoyment.

2. What I propose is not the same as removing breeding. Although it follows the same dynamic design that "wild" mounts follow. The dynamic design that nature tends to follow actually. My friend described mounts in MO as RhinoCheetahs. Extremely strong fast and agile. That just doesn't happen in nature, because tradeoffs exist. So it follows the same logic as "wild" mounts, however, breeding offers customization of the mount. Finding exactly the 120 strength mount that also has max speed/dex/con/size/weight etc with bullhorse hitpoints isn't possible. Finding the desert with 700 strength and max stats also isn't possible. Finding a really quality horse predictably at the spawns, also would be a challenge. So breeding becomes about consistency, customization, and convenience.

3. What I propose would not eliminate min-max. Anytime there are tradeoffs there is something you want a lot of, like speed, and something you want less of, like strength/hp. Players will select for the best of what they can get as they see it. There is nothing wrong with that (I can't think of any competitive game or experience that doesn't involve min-max, don't see many obese sprinters in the Olympics). The difference, however, would be that there would be many different combinations of min-maxing specific to each build and rider. The best MA horse would not be the best MC horse, and even within an MA horse, that would be different depending on the size/armor/weapons loot needs of the rider.
 
1. Removing systems isn't the way forward.
Normally I would agree that removing systems is bad. But honestly breeding is such a trash fire of a system that they have been trying to nerf for ages with no success. The core is just bad. Min max op mounts ruin gameplay. I love how MO has all these baller complex systems. But sometimes the easiest solution is the simple one.

Like oldschool runescape. Almost everything in the game is barebones basic. But it has 66k players on currently and is always growing. I dont want MO to be a dumbed down game with all lame systems like osrs, but it does show that when in doubt simple works.

for all I care they can recycle the breeding system to breed pvp pets with a pet patch or something so its not wasted code to be poor mans animal mag or something. But to me the mount breeding system is unredeemable and does nothing but create gearbased anti fun mounted gameplay. I want a world where a mounted rides a tamed mount and might actually let it die to get a fight and fight on foot. Not this crap we have now. And we will never have anything else as long as people primarily use bred mounts.
 
Thread starter #10
Normally I would agree that removing systems is bad. But honestly breeding is such a trash fire of a system that they have been trying to nerf for ages with no success. The core is just bad. Min max op mounts ruin gameplay. I love how MO has all these baller complex systems. But sometimes the easiest solution is the simple one.

Like oldschool runescape. Almost everything in the game is barebones basic. But it has 66k players on currently and is always growing. I dont want MO to be a dumbed down game with all lame systems like osrs, but it does show that when in doubt simple works.

for all I care they can recycle the breeding system to breed pvp pets with a pet patch or something so its not wasted code to be poor mans animal mag or something. But to me the mount breeding system is unredeemable and does nothing but create gearbased anti fun mounted gameplay. I want a world where a mounted rides a tamed mount and might actually let it die to get a fight and fight on foot. Not this crap we have now. And we will never have anything else as long as people primarily use bred mounts.
You sound frustrated by the pace of change, something I understand. I left for two years and came back and mounted is still -super mount dismount dismount death-, and TC is still an unfun ninja siege-fest with no raiding. I put this out because there's a chance SV is looking to make some changes and I think this would work and be like an improved version of pre-mount patch. It's up to them and in the meantime, there's other games to play and other things to do in MO.
 
That HP nerf was dumb. It doesn't address the issue. Balance through making everything uniform is not honoring the complex design of this game, so I can understand the frustration. However, something like this would be incredibly lucrative for people in the business of selling bred horses, and also tamers.

There would be no one mount to rule them all. Diversity makes for a good market. Each rider could benefit from a mount specific for their build and needs. For example, if a player wants to weild a 8kg hammer, wear 24kg of armor, have 10kg horse armor, and have an inventory full of back up weapons, and loot, his horse will need a certain amount of strength that will reduce it's maxed speed. Imagine a heavy calvary rider that is anti-infantry, with a strong tanky horse with as much speed as can be achieved while having sufficient strength.

Another rider might want 10kg of armor, no horse armor, and be okay with no loot carrying capacity. This mount would be capable of much faster speeds, and would be much easier to kill. Imagine a light calvary, with a thoroughbred race horse. Low strength, all the points dumped into speed and dex.

That is the trade off from the pre-Mount patch days. That's how nearly every other system in the game works. That's how it works in reality.

And each of these mounts could be bred by well informed and active breeders. Breeders could specialize in each of the areas. Maybe some breed racehorses, some bred warhorses. That's a good market place where what you do matters.

It would also allow tamers to have a bigger market as there would be many people that just want a good enough horse that is well-rounded rather than specialized. If the dismount threshold is reverted, mounts become much less important overall, as it's not dismount or die. They become utility again, and tamers meet that low investement utility role.
Yeah this is basically how tamed mounts works. Different specialities, not 1 mount to rule them all. It would take a bit of work to balance this correctly within breeding tho, maybe just limit breeding to the same species?

If they nerfed HP enough you might not even need dismounts anymore. In MR I barely dismounted anyone, just hit their horse 2-3 times and they had to back off. In MO the mounted just laughs at me lol

Another thing that MR does well is no blinders, mounts feel like actual horses and not go carts. They cant really sticky back players anymore, instead they have to do more prolonged hit and runs. I made a poll about nerfing them but most ppl were against it, I guess they have grown accostumed to the convenience.
 
I made a poll about nerfing them but most ppl were against it, I guess they have grown accostumed to the convenience.
Its cuz a large % of the people who havent quit yet play mounted. Everyone else gave up and left so they cant vote. But to me any mounteds who quit will just be replaced by new players in a more fun mo that retains more players. Cuz mounted in its current form only shoos them away. when a nub dies to a mounted they arnt going to go make a mc and spend 500g on gear, they will just go play something with better gameplay.
 
Thread starter #13
Yeah this is basically how tamed mounts works. Different specialities, not 1 mount to rule them all. It would take a bit of work to balance this correctly within breeding tho, maybe just limit breeding to the same species?

If they nerfed HP enough you might not even need dismounts anymore. In MR I barely dismounted anyone, just hit their horse 2-3 times and they had to back off. In MO the mounted just laughs at me lol

Another thing that MR does well is no blinders, mounts feel like actual horses and not go carts. They cant really sticky back players anymore, instead they have to do more prolonged hit and runs. I made a poll about nerfing them but most ppl were against it, I guess they have grown accostumed to the convenience.
Did you read the OP?
 

MolagAmur

Well-Known Member
Breeding is basically the problem here. They have been trying to balance it since it was added to the game. It just doesn't belong. At least not in any form it's currently in.
 
Thread starter #15
Breeding is basically the problem here. They have been trying to balance it since it was added to the game. It just doesn't belong. At least not in any form it's currently in.
Breeding that leads to a mount with no negatives is the problem. A gear purchased dismount skill is the problem. These could easily be changed, if SV decides to act.
 
No. There is already a stat cap system in place. It does not go far enough to restrict stats in a particular way: it does not weight Health and Strength high enough.
if by some how those changes took place question is " what will happen to those old mounts and recipes " ? they be a diversion to the system u imagined .....
 

Roranicus

Junior Member
if by some how those changes took place question is " what will happen to those old mounts and recipes " ? they be a diversion to the system u imagined .....
The previous changes randomly slashed and ruined many pre-patch mounts. SV can do the same again.
 

Roranicus

Junior Member
I think that the breeding system can be left in place if drastic enough changes are made. Either, no more cross-breeding (which I favor) or a severe point cap such as Godkin has mentioned, which is a more complex system.
 
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