Raiding

Thread starter #41
Im totally with xunila.

sry Ozymandias but that is the most stupid idea ive ever seen an ive seen people suggesting third person in Mortal. YOu are now the new number1 in ideas how to piss players off even more xD

anyway have a great day, ive also had some shit suggestions, think of other people too.
I won't speak for @Ozymandias he's more than capable. But I will say, I interpreted his post to be an intentional stretch of the OP to point at the costs and risks of guilds, like RPK, that have a lot of assets. The suggestions in the OP would increase their risk by a lot. People would be able to bypass their walls, to harass and rob, profit from their expansion by killing guards, and make them defend their territory much more actively. They of course, would have the same option, to raid others. However, due to their size and wealth, they can already destroy villages and profit from others. The benefit they could extract from raiding would be limited by the fact that many, if not most of the people fighting them live out of NPC towns, or will, after their presumed successful sieges. So, it's a way of suggesting the stakes get raised for "both" sides.
Unfortunately, success has its costs, one can't get blood from stone, his example would make for a linear progression of the game that would make it impossible for any new player or rival guild to form.
 
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Didnt even try to read whole thread because its crybabies and morons trying to make suggestions.
Would sum it up by "SV pls make this and that in game so we could destroy RPK! finaly".

PS. u all suck . Go play GV or other trash game.
 
Thread starter #43
Didnt even try to read whole thread because its crybabies and morons trying to make suggestions.
Would sum it up by "SV pls make this and that in game so we could destroy RPK! finaly".

PS. u all suck . Go play GV or other trash game.
That's one way to look at it. Another might be that there is a lot wrong with TC right now and a #raidingpatch2019 would do a lot to address it.

Thanks for the input.
 
I won't speak for @Ozymandias he's more than capable. But I will say, I interpreted his post to be an intentional stretch of the OP to point at the costs and risks of guilds, like RPK, that have a lot of assets. The suggestions in the OP would increase their risk by a lot. People would be able to bypass their walls, to harass and rob, profit from their expansion by killing guards, and make them defend their territory much more actively. They of course, would have the same option, to raid others. However, due to their size and wealth, they can already destroy villages and profit from others. The benefit they could extract from raiding would be limited by the fact that many, if not most of the people fighting them live out of NPC towns, or will, after their pressumed successful sieges. So, it's a way of suggestioning the stakes get raised for "both" sides.
Unfortunately, success has it's costs, one can't get blood from stone, his example would makes for a linear progression of the game that would make it impossible for any new player or rival guild to form.
I don't think you understand, there is no "profit" in sieging, you get one thing from sieging and that's scraps and scraps are used to fund other sieges as they are the fastest building material for siege engines, other than that its a huge time and gold sink.

Unless you are trying to gain the land your enemy once had or simple erase their foot print, there is no "profit", not since the Aralis Patch when deed drops were removed.

There are guilds with far more TC and NPC Guards than RPK!, you just don't constantly scout out siege targets and count the guards that need to be taken care of for a siege to be successful, and your only info is fake news of propaganda you hear from lazy whinny kids unwilling to put the effort into sieging.

Its the server which will be holding the shit end of the stick, not RPK!, they are geared for raiding and have more experience at it then the rest of the server combined, everything RPK! has built has been through the forge of war, other guilds especially the Sarducca guild are woefully unprepared for when and if(and a big if at that) SV ever did what you asked for.
 
Great idea! (sarcasm off)

All items of value will be stored on f2p accounts and players returning after weeks or months into the game finding their bank empty will call GMs and leave the game again because of the bugs and items disappearing.

I think you don't want to play MO but another game.
Im totally with xunila.

sry Ozymandias but that is the most stupid idea ive ever seen an ive seen people suggesting third person in Mortal. YOu are now the new number1 in ideas how to piss players off even more xD

anyway have a great day, ive also had some shit suggestions, think of other people too.
I am not a pussy... sorry

I relish being punished for losing, I have never had a participation trophy, I would even be fine if SV did a in game wipe of all items.

Its only because I can lose all I have or take it from someone else that I even still play MO
 
Thread starter #46
I don't think you understand, there is no "profit" in sieging, you get one thing from sieging and that's scraps and scraps are used to fund other sieges as they are the fastest building material for siege engines, other than that its a huge time and gold sink.

Unless you are trying to gain the land your enemy once had or simple erase their foot print, there is no "profit", not since the Aralis Patch when deed drops were removed.

There are guilds with far more TC and NPC Guards than RPK!, you just don't constantly scout out siege targets and count the guards that need to be taken care of for a siege to be successful, and your only info is fake news of propaganda you hear from lazy whinny kids unwilling to put the effort into sieging.

Its the server which will be holding the shit end of the stick, not RPK!, they are geared for raiding and have more experience at it then the rest of the server combined, everything RPK! has built has been through the forge of war, other guilds especially the Sarducca guild are woefully unprepared for when and if(and a big if at that) SV ever did what you asked for.
Your second point addresses your first point from my view. Profit comes in many forms.
I don't disagree with anything you said about RPK! doing very well with a raiding patch. I find it strange some RPK! are arguing these suggestions as though it's against their interests. RPK! avails themselves to the profit of sieging as control of valuable territory, all evidence suggests they will do well with raiding. I see the concerns about change, but I think it's just a misunderstanding of the big picture, but I could be wrong.

Not sure where you get the idea that my suggestions stem from others, I originally posted something very similar when TC launched, there were clear sieging threshold mechanics placed on conflict that inevitably slows the game and focuses it on sieges. That's too stagnant for all but the Empires. For example: https://www.starvault.se/mortalforu...n-whats-ruining-this-game.122670/post-2067210

The key difference is unlocking activity from those not engaged in conflict though a raiding patch. Those not interested in controlling though sieges, but rather, logging in and participating in lots of low level conflict that has meaning, rewards, and impact.

#Raidingpatch2019

p.s. I appreciate how you're trying to see this suggested change from multiple perspectives @Ozymandias
 
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Your second point addresses your first point from my view. Profit comes in many forms.
I don't disagree with anything you said about RPK! doing very well with a raiding patch. I find it strange some RPK! are arguing these suggestions as though it's against their interests. RPK! avails themselves to the profit of sieging as control of valuable territory, all evidence suggests they will do well with raiding. I see the concerns about change, but I think it's just a misunderstanding of the big picture, but I could be wrong.

Not sure where you get the idea that my suggestions stem from others, I originally posted something very similar when TC launched, there were clear sieging threshold mechanics placed on conflict that inevitably slows the game and focuses it on sieges. That's too stagnant for all but the Empires. For example: https://www.starvault.se/mortalforu...n-whats-ruining-this-game.122670/post-2067210

The key difference is unlocking activity from those not engaged in conflict though a raiding patch. Those not interested in controlling though sieges, but rather, logging in and participating in lots of low level conflict that has meaning, rewards, and impact.

#Raidingpatch2019

p.s. I appreciate how you're trying to see this suggested change from multiple perspectives @Ozymandias
I enjoy raiding, it was a blast raping QUADs TC until the Aralis Patch put a end to it all, I would love to see it return.

As much as I enjoy the cause and effect of sieging, I don't think it should be easy, it should be done at great effort, much greater than that put forth by the builder, it shouldn't be a casual thing, it should be end game material.

And I hate to say it but that's pretty much where it is now, as you can tell by the ever flowing tears of the kids in the Server Alliance, and yet RPK! who are veterans at sieging the "unsiegable"* are not hampered by that same system that seems to stymie the salt node guilds.

Would I personally like to see a climbing skill or ladders and siege towers, along with pickable gates, doors and house chest, and if you defeat a guild you should get everything in the treasury along with half their prominence? Absofuckinglutely!

* (Remember that cave in Sarducca that AI had when Sarducca first opened and everyone thought it was unsiegable? Well NULL has it now and thought the same as AI did... RPK! popped that fucking cherry and impregnated the impregnable and deleted the 2 relics they had there, despite all the guards and walls and the natural fortification of the caves)
 

Najwalaylah

Exalted Member
* (Remember that cave in Sarducca that AI had when Sarducca first opened and everyone thought it was unsiegable? Well NULL has it now and thought the same as AI did... RPK! popped that fucking cherry and impregnated the impregnable and deleted the 2 relics they had there, despite all the guards and walls and the natural fortification of the caves)
No; I remember when we never thought it was unsiegeable-- since it wasn't.

You just make shit up as you go along.^^
 

Speznat

Senior Member
SHhhhh... Men are talking
shhh.... trial members have nothing to say here |*sarcasm

dont shhhh... the person with the most posts and have more love addicted to mortal than you ever could.

I dont know you, so youre maybe not well known dont sure, so you should act in your status margin of error:

*edit PARTY HART also your blocked profile give out no infos so yeah xD
 
shhh.... trial members have nothing to say here |*sarcasm

dont shhhh... the person with the most posts and have more love addicted to mortal than you ever could.

I dont know you, so youre maybe not well known dont sure, so you should act in your status margin of error:

*edit PARTY HART also your blocked profile give out no infos so yeah xD
I said Shhhhhh... Men are talking, I believe Shhhhhh applies to your anime ass as well
 
"Ladders" exist. "Ladders" are just a mechanic to bypass walls. You're just giving it a different name. Mangannons, rams, portals, use of terrain, elementalism, houses, ramps, waiting outside a gate are just a few examples of current game mechanics that can be used to bypass walls. And just like any mechanic, "Ladders" would need an appropriate and balanced counter-mechanic. What is your proposed counter-mechanic?

Let's say that you do get ladders. Let's say that guards now drop 1 days worth of salary and that salary is deducted from the guild treasury. Let's say you even remove ranged attacks for guards. Let's say that you can even pick the guild treasury. Who then, in their right mind, would build a palisade, invest in guards or even a guild treasury? If a mechanic is easily bypassed, then why would anyone invest in it? If you eliminate the usefulness of thing, no one will use it. So why not just eliminate walls and guards completely rather than introduce a mechanic to make them worthless? Because, in effect, that's what you're asking for. The elimination of walls and guards.
 
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Thread starter #54
"Ladders" exist. "Ladders" are just a mechanic to bypass walls. You're just giving it a different name. Mangannons, rams, portals, use of terrain, elementalism, houses, ramps, waiting outside a gate are just a few examples of current game mechanics that can be used to bypass walls. And just like any mechanic, "Ladders" would need an appropriate and balanced counter-mechanic. What is your proposed counter-mechanic?
This will be controversial with the current playerbase, but I think the counter-measure should be PvP combat.

Let's say that you do get ladders. Let's say that guards now drop 1 days worth of salary and that salary is deducted from the guild treasury. Let's say you even remove ranged attacks for guards. Let's say that you can even pick the guild treasury. Who then, in their right mind, would build a palisade, invest in guards or even a guild treasury?
People who can defend it.

If a mechanic is easily bypassed, then why would anyone invest in it? If you eliminate the usefulness of thing, no one will use it. So why not just eliminate walls and guards completely rather than introduce a mechanic to make them worthless? Because, in effect, that's what you're asking for. The elimination of walls and guards.
One reason might be to control territory.


I understand the use of straw man, unfortunately it's leading to false equivalence.
 
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"Ladders" exist. "Ladders" are just a mechanic to bypass walls. You're just giving it a different name. Mangannons, rams, portals, use of terrain, elementalism, houses, ramps, waiting outside a gate are just a few examples of current game mechanics that can be used to bypass walls. And just like any mechanic, "Ladders" would need an appropriate and balanced counter-mechanic. What is your proposed counter-mechanic?

Let's say that you do get ladders. Let's say that guards now drop 1 days worth of salary and that salary is deducted from the guild treasury. Let's say you even remove ranged attacks for guards. Let's say that you can even pick the guild treasury. Who then, in their right mind, would build a palisade, invest in guards or even a guild treasury? If a mechanic is easily bypassed, then why would anyone invest in it? If you eliminate the usefulness of thing, no one will use it. So why not just eliminate walls and guards completely rather than introduce a mechanic to make them worthless? Because, in effect, that's what you're asking for. The elimination of walls and guards.
Out of all those mechanics, only mangs are really viable. Rams? Cant use em on killboxes. Use of terrain? Maybe if someone with down syndrome builds your pally. Elementalism? Patched after you guys stole pyre's relic. Waiting outside a gate? Again, killboxes. Portals? Portalblockers. House would work in theory, but only a more expensive and time consuming way than mangs.

Ah the good ol argument Aralis would use, "If you add ladders, Who will build???". Is safety really the only use of TC? Would RPK! decon all their TC if ladders were implemented? That points to another problem, over the years when players ask SV to reduce the safety of TC, they choose instead to strip it of most worthwhile rewards, and that has finally led to the stagnant TC phase we have now.

Id have no problem if alert towers pinged siege ladders like any other siege weapon, could give a little heads up that would still make walls worth having, apart from the added defense on sieges.
 
This will be controversial with the current playerbase, but I think the counter-measure should be PvP combat.
Stop trying to sound so 'hard-core'. You only play when YOU want to pvp and you keep all your stuff in a safe town bank. Kinda carebear actually. Nothing persistent, nothing vulnerable, nothing to lose.

People who can defend it.
No one wants to be logged on 24/7. You know this. That's why you don't own anything.

One reason might be to control territory.
TC Towers are too vulnerable without walls, counter measures and a 24/7 guild. 5 guys can take out a Tier 3 TC Tower in less than 5 minute with minimal risk/expense.

I understand the use of straw man, unfortunately it's leading to false equavalents.
I'm curious, what would you consider my 'straw man'? Just claiming something is a fallacy doesn't make it a fallacy. Wouldn't that be a fallacy fallacy?

And it's spelled 'equivalents'. It helps to spell things correctly when you're trying to sound smart.
 
Out of all those mechanics, only mangs are really viable. Rams? Cant use em on killboxes. Use of terrain? Maybe if someone with down syndrome builds your pally. Elementalism? Patched after you guys stole pyre's relic. Waiting outside a gate? Again, killboxes. Portals? Portalblockers. House would work in theory, but only a more expensive and time consuming way than mangs.
Rams were used repeatedly by TOFU over the past 6 months to take out RPK towers. I have blown up numerous palisades by using nearby terrain to gain vantage or access. Your last palisade (4pac) was a good example of terrain/buildings allowing access. Airburst has been used on Vadda Towers, Tephra Palisade and GK Keep to provide access. We used Iceshield just the other day to gain access to a palisade. I used Portals to take out the NULL relics and Vadda Towers just recently. My first siege used a house and ramp to gain access. It's not just a theory. Basically, you don't know what you're talking about.
 
Thread starter #58
Stop trying to sound so 'hard-core'. You only play when YOU want to pvp and you keep all your stuff in a safe town bank. Kinda carebear actually. Nothing persistent, nothing vulnerable, nothing to lose.


No one wants to be logged on 24/7. You know this. That's why you don't own anything.


TC Towers are too vulnerable without walls, counter measures and a 24/7 guild. 5 guys can take out a Tier 3 TC Tower in less than 5 minute with minimal risk/expense.

I'm curious, what would you consider my 'straw man'? Just claiming something is a fallacy doesn't make it a fallacy. Wouldn't that be a fallacy fallacy?

And it's spelled 'equivalents'. It helps to spell things correctly when you're trying to sound smart.
Thank you. I'll correct the error. It's also hard to sound smart whilst typing on a phone, for me at least.

Guards dropping loot does not equal eliminating guards.
Adding ladders does not equal removing walls.
Losing some income (completely controllable) relative to village size to raiding is not the same as there being no benefit to TC

Sounds like a concern is TC towers being more vulnerable. They were originally implemented as a way to control land and spur activity in the game world. Obviously that role has changed. Perhaps a sturdier structure that is so pivotal to assets would be more appropriate since this is so anxiety inducing. Would a bump to TC tower HP ease your concern? What would you think is appropriate?
 
Rams were used repeatedly by TOFU over the past 6 months to take out RPK towers. I have blown up numerous palisades by using nearby terrain to gain vantage or access. Your last palisade (4pac) was a good example of terrain/buildings allowing access. Airburst has been used on Vadda Towers, Tephra Palisade and GK Keep to provide access. We used Iceshield just the other day to gain access to a palisade. I used Portals to take out the NULL relics and Vadda Towers just recently. My first siege used a house and ramp to gain access. It's not just a theory. Basically, you don't know what you're talking about.
Just because u got lucky a couple of times with poorly constructed pallisades doesnt mean this stuff can act as "ladders". TC needs more consistent risk than something that happens once every few months and can be fully negated pretty easily
 
Guards dropping loot does not equal eliminating guards.
Adding ladders does not equal removing walls.
Losing some income (completely controllable) relative to village size to raiding is not the same as there being no benefit to TC

- If guards lose a days worth of salary upon death, then yes, they become too costly to justify their use. And too easy a target for griefing. Guards already drop loot. You're proposing to increase that loot/cost by 24 times.
- Adding ladders without a counter measure effectively eliminates the function of walls. Just think portals w/o portal blockers.
- Guilds would only put a minimal amount of money in the guild tax manager, which would then require more tedious daily maintenance of TC. People already complain that having TC is like having a second job. Do we really want to make it more laborious?

I would have to be misrepresenting your arguments in order for there to be a straw man. There's an obvious train of logical consequence between what you propose and the reality of those proposals. Maybe this isn't evident to you because you have little to no TC experience.

Here's something to think about. Deed drops were removed because sieging was too profitable. RPK is the reason deed drops were removed. What do you think RPK would be doing if raiding was profitable?

TC is already very time consuming, costly and undesirable. All you have to do is ride around the map and see how empty it is. Ladders with no counter-measures will only exacerbate the problem.

Sounds like a concern is TC towers being more vulnerable. They were originally implemented as a way to control land and spur activity in the game world. Obviously that role has changed. Perhaps a sturdier structure that is so pivotal to assets would be more appropriate since this is so anxiety inducing. Would a bump to TC tower HP ease your concern? What would you think is appropriate?
There's already plenty of discussions going on concerning TC Towers. Personally, I think they're fine as they are now as long as they don't eliminate the usefulness of walls/guards and fix no-build footprints. It takes quite an investment to properly protect a TC Tower, as it should be.
 
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