Should these be 'Secondary' instead of 'Primary'? [Balance discussion]

Should this skill be turned into a 'Secondary' skill?


  • Total voters
    31
Thread starter #1
Another straight forward poll (More to come!) to gauge the current communities standpoint on some skills which are currently 'Primaries' but perhaps should be 'Secondary'.

Some skills here will be simply suggested to be secondary, while others will have their primaries switched to another skill (to retain balance).

If you have any reasonable suggestions, do add them!

I'll provide my reasoning down below this for each one. I'll also include the skills descriptions so you don't have to go in-game to find them.
mining.PNG

woodcutting.PNG

activeregeneration.PNG

meditation.PNG

brawling.PNG

riding.PNG


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Mining and Woodcutting are straight forward. They are gathering abilities, and they should be absolutely no different from the 'Gather' ability. Everyone should be able to mine and chop wood without primary points invested into them. This would open up more resource flow, and make the life of new players much easier.

Active Regeneration has almost no use. It is a primary, and is absolutely unused (or used by a HANDFUL of players.. for some odd reason?) It would make resting take less time, meaning less down time for players; and it would be an ability you would acquire from a book for the reason of shortening potential poisoning durations.

Meditation is in the same boat as Active Regeneration. For those of you who think this will make mages overpowered, I doubt it. It even says the mage must be at rest for the returns. The only -real- issue I could see here is something like siege defense, and having elementalists resting up and using their spells in safety to destroy siege equipment (But sieging is a different topic all together!)

Brawling is usually only leveled when statting up, or using a fist fighter. Let players have Brawling as a secondary to defend themselves unarmed and so we can host fist fighting clubs or something. But obviously make Fist Weapons become a primary.

Riding should be available to all players. The game is massive, and we as players need to be able to get around quicker. Let players have Riding as a secondary but make Swift Riding a primary. That way players aren't necessarily faster than proper mounteds.

Again, I welcome all constructive criticism. This is mostly a gauge on some of the more unused or 'Why is it a primary?' skills.

Thank you for reading.

*Edit - 10/1/2018 - Added 'Athletics' to the poll.
 
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Speznat

Senior Member
Another straight forward poll (More to come!) to gauge the current communities standpoint on some skills which are currently 'Primaries' but perhaps should be 'Secondary'.

Some skills here will be simply suggested to be secondary, while others will have their primaries switched to another skill (to retain balance).

If you have any reasonable suggestions, do add them!

I'll provide my reasoning down below this for each one. I'll also include the skills descriptions so you don't have to go in-game to find them.
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Mining and Woodcutting are straight forward. They are gathering abilities, and they should be absolutely no different from the 'Gather' ability. Everyone should be able to mine and chop wood without primary points invested into them. This would open up more resource flow, and make the life of new players much easier.

Active Regeneration has almost no use. It is a primary, and is absolutely unused (or used by a HANDFUL of players.. for some odd reason?) It would make resting take less time, meaning less down time for players; and it would be an ability you would acquire from a book for the reason of shortening potential poisoning durations.

Meditation is in the same boat as Active Regeneration. For those of you who think this will make mages overpowered, I doubt it. It even says the mage must be at rest for the returns. The only -real- issue I could see here is something like siege defense, and having elementalists resting up and using their spells in safety to destroy siege equipment (But sieging is a different topic all together!)

Brawling is usually only leveled when statting up, or using a fist fighter. Let players have Brawling as a secondary to defend themselves unarmed and so we can host fist fighting clubs or something. But obviously make Fist Weapons become a primary.

Riding should be available to all players. The game is massive, and we as players need to be able to get around quicker. Let players have Riding as a secondary but make Swift Riding a primary. That way players aren't necessarily faster than proper mounteds.

Again, I welcome all constructive criticism. This is mostly a gauge on some of the more unused or 'Why is it a primary?' skills.

Thank you for reading.
Totally Agree, these skills should be secondary to give people more option and more opportunity to do things, i would go on adventures with my fighter jsut to mine or woodcut at some spots, wich i wouldt even do with a skille dminer because a skilled miner cant defend themselve
 

Xunila

Cronite Supporter
Yes for mining, woodcutting and riding. The amount per time from mining and woodcutting is increased with the material skill, so only one of two primaries would be removed.
 
I would add Athletics to the list of primaries that should be changed to secondary, and Breathing Technique be changed to primary instead. Give the non-combat toons a bit more than quick-walking at max speed with the Shift key held down.

Also, change Armourcrafting to secondary. To this day, I still have no idea why that skill is even a primary when it does absolutely nothing and serves only as a parent skill for more primaries underneath it. If it was a secondary, my armourcrafter could pick up Scales lore which is actually useful.
 
Thread starter #5
Totally Agree, these skills should be secondary to give people more option and more opportunity to do things, i would go on adventures with my fighter jsut to mine or woodcut at some spots, wich i wouldt even do with a skille dminer because a skilled miner cant defend themselve
Yes for mining, woodcutting and riding. The amount per time from mining and woodcutting is increased with the material skill, so only one of two primaries would be removed.
I would add Athletics to the list of primaries that should be changed to secondary, and Breathing Technique be changed to primary instead. Give the non-combat toons a bit more than quick-walking at max speed with the Shift key held down.

Also, change Armourcrafting to secondary. To this day, I still have no idea why that skill is even a primary when it does absolutely nothing and serves only as a parent skill for more primaries underneath it. If it was a secondary, my armourcrafter could pick up Scales lore which is actually useful.
Thank you all for the feedback. In response to @finegamingconnoisseur I can see your reasoning for both. I'm unsure on the 'Athletics' portion mainly because it is utilized in every foot build, and if it were to turn into a secondary; all fighting characters would now gain an additional 100 primary points. Meaning foot fighters could now all have archery, or all have potion utilization; or what ever really! It could be a good change - it could throw balance around.

I will agree entirely with 'Armourcrafting' however. Though when it comes to crafting, I think people should be able to craft everything in their field plus work with most if not all materials. Having different specializations of materials and what types of armor or weapons on crafts - is annoying.
 
Walking in MO is one of the most tedious time sink things ever made, riding should definitely be secondary. gathering skills aswell :p
 

Jatix

Junior Member
Voted yes to all except med and brawling.

Med actually can help in combat (kinda, mages sleeping in the back of their group to fast charge mana), more mana regen deserves sacrafice.
and no to brawling because it will make statlossing more annoying when you punch for damage lol. and brawling is just trash so it doesnt actually matter.

And fist weps are a secondary under brawling, so would be op.

Riding and stuff, full yes. You wouldnt see very many people on foot anymore but roaming on a tamed mount with 30 archery to unlock ma and do half damage is all you need to roam. and then when you get a fight you want to dismount or kill their mount and then dismount to fight anyway. So its not like it will make the game 100% mounted builds. riding with no mc or ma is so bad you pretty much cant kill any competent foot player, so you would need to dismount to fight after killing their mount. And most of the time your mount also sucks super bad, so anyone with a bow could dunk it and then you have to fight on foot anyway.

And people can currently ride a mount with 0 riding usually. Idk why they dont. but they can so anyone saying that people will just mount and run, it doesnt really matter because they already could 0 riding.
 

Najwalaylah

Exalted Member
Meaning foot fighters could now all have archery, or all have potion utilization; or what ever really! It could be a good change - it could throw balance around.
I know nothing about foot-fighting except that people who do it often complain about how overpowered mounted combat was, is, or will be-- but archery or potion utilisation seem like natural things for a foot-fighter to have.
 
Thread starter #10
I know nothing about foot-fighting except that people who do it often complain about how overpowered mounted combat was, is, or will be-- but archery or potion utilisation seem like natural things for a foot-fighter to have.
Oh, no. I definitely agree. Just some people start screeching when you start to give a little leeway to another form of playing the game. I think magic and mounted combat have been mostly getting a lot of attention, but foot fighting (and what we have with it) is kind of old and a bit dated.
 
Stop being cheap, pay for labor.
The people who cant be arsed to mine/woodcut will still pay for labor, and everyone else can just make a f2p. This just changes the dynamic of resource gathering, instead of miners/woodcutters being free kills for griefers, they can fight back and meaningful pvp for resources can happen.
 
The people who cant be arsed to mine/woodcut will still pay for labor, and everyone else can just make a f2p. This just changes the dynamic of resource gathering, instead of miners/woodcutters being free kills for griefers, they can fight back and meaningful pvp for resources can happen.
Oh, so this all grows out of concern for the miners and woodcutters? This is an anti-griefing suggestion?
 
Thread starter #14
Oh, so this all grows out of concern for the miners and woodcutters? This is an anti-griefing suggestion?
No. Not to put 'words into his mouth'; but I believe he's trying to express that it would be a QoL change. People will still have slow, easily killed characters who can mine and chop wood. It just seems weird why it's a primary. It's two of the most basic resources needed in the game.

I also agree that he makes a fair point that people will still pay for the resources, it will just be easier to do because now I don't have to restrict it to a 'gathering character'.

Also to note, you would -STILL- need primaries to get the full yield from these resources (Unless it's changed that having the material lore increased the yield.)

I understand that your stance is keeping roles diversified so that people are more unique in their playstyle. I don't think these abilities really set people apart in any manner. Though I'd love to hear your side of the story.
 

Najwalaylah

Exalted Member
Oh, so this all grows out of concern for the miners and woodcutters?
Highly doubtful, especially considering the source. It at least partly serves the purpose of taking away
  1. easy pickings, or easy kleptoparasitism if one prefers, on a guild level as well as on an the level of individual 'toons, and
  2. the sheer frequency with which people can continue to complain that they can't find real fights.
This is an anti-griefing suggestion?
Probably it will just spread the grief around a bit more evenly. That shouldn't bother anyone who isn't a softy.
 
Oh, so this all grows out of concern for the miners and woodcutters? This is an anti-griefing suggestion?
Its about making the game more fun in general, and promoting meaningful fights. One of the reasons full loot works better in survival games like Rust is you dont need a special character that dies in 2 hits to gather resources, and tons of fights happen while ppl are out and about. Theres already a bunch of ways fights can be uneven in games like these, like zergs, gear, pets, etc. Why add more?

Swadian nailed it when he said these abilities dont really set you apart, especially when it can be done with a f2p. Dont really know of any known miners in the community, or woodcutters. While theres been tons of crafters, alchemists, even extractors, those are more like professions.

I would also make resources closer to towns have lower yields, so ppl are incentivised to leave the gz
 
Thread starter #17
I'll add onto my stance of these skills being secondary. Lets have more MEANINGFUL characters in the game, rather than ones that hold the sole purpose of reading books, and doing something a macro can do or you set to AFK and leave. It makes gameplay uninspiring and it begins to show the flaws within the game quite quickly when you can't gather simple resources like wood and ore - only if you allow your 'build' to be hindered.

It's not about removing specializations, it's about allowing your character to be more unique and meaningful to you and those around you.

Even though it isn't really relevant to the topic, I kind of like the idea of a guild roaming around in a group with donkeys or molvas, and just harvesting resources as they go along their roam to where ever (or they do it specifically to get resources.)

I think the two skills (Mining and Woodcutting) would stimulate the economy better if everyone had access to them. Again, a traditional gathering character would -still- have an advantage over them with material lore (i.e. more yield) still making them more effective at harvesting said resource. But as it stands.. as @chingaperros pointed out - it currently does not make your character any more specialized, it only adds for another time sink in /another/ character slot or a whole other account together.

My point? Having one account should feel satisfying. You shouldn't feel the need to have more than one account on this game.

This is also coming from someone who enjoys mining, and did it for both profit and self-supply.
 

MolagAmur

Well-Known Member
You forgot Athletics. Footspeed should be the primary.
 
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Najwalaylah

Exalted Member
Even though it isn't really relevant to the topic, I kind of like the idea of a guild roaming around in a group with donkeys or molvas, and just harvesting resources as they go along their roam to where ever (or they do it specifically to get resources.)
Sometimes in 2010 & 2011, the guild I was in would do 'gathering parties'. It soon got to be too much for those who were along "to protect the party"-- not that they had to do much protecting, but it wasn't elite enough for their tastes and used up valuable time when they could have been riding around looking for fights (and perhaps they felt a bit left out of the hard, "nose-in-the-dirt" grinding which everyone else was doing-- though I doubt it).

Anything which would make that kind of guild structure less likely has my vote.
 
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