TC Controversy

Thread starter #1

Finnley

Senior Member
@Sebastian Persson @Herius @Henrik Nystrom
I have heard a lot of wrong information getting spread in a rather aggressive way by a few players that recently failed a siege.

Just to clarify some stuff here
First of all, there are no unsiegeable towers, absolutely nothing in this game is unsiegeable .
I have build, destroyed and also seen alot of "unsiegeable" towers fall trough out the years.
Some towers are just really hard to siege because they are hard to reach.
After getting up to date with the current game mechanics i can say it has never been easier to destroy "unsiegeable" towers.
The implementation of elementalism, portals and free house placement are real game changing in that aspect.
A single dedicated player could destroy any "unsiegeable" tower with the right timing.
Its not a easy task and its something that would need preparation.

People are also complained about walls, guards and fire arrows
I have made my own suggestions about this topic and i will try to make a quick summary at the end of this post

The main argument i have seen was something like:
"If you cant defend your keep you should not be allowed to have one"
followed by something like
"OMG nerf fire arrows, we had 20 people sieging and lost to 5 archers"
A skillful reader realizes the controversy in those statements.
According to the amount of salt the defending group clearly could and did defend their keep.
It is not impossible to siege a keep that is being defended, it has been done successfully before countless of times with even more numbers on both sides, it takes planning, preparation and it is not a easy task.
Sieging should never be a easy task, afterall you are destroying someones hard work.
A system where you would need to be the strongest group on the server 24/7 or you loose your tower/keep is complete garbage but that is exactly what some people seem to be asking for.
It would be arena online...... Funny how none of them play MR tough, the game that is exactly that.
Anyway walls/guards/archers are what humans always used to fight off bigger odds, its just a realistic approach that they can hold out until the siege breaks. Its not like there are no counter measures.

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Since there has been numerous discussions about how people think TC should be changed here is a quick overview of what i think:
This is just my personal opinion and has nothing to do with my guild, politics, whatsoever
Yeah most has been said countless times before but i finally typed it down and tried to explain my point of view.

I really dislike how TC towers work and to what meta it has lead, i have stated this numerous times and even years ago shortly after the TC patch was released i have pointed this out in my feedback. I would prefer a village system much like in Darkfall but we have to work with what we have got. Please do not misinterpret this as pointing fingers, its just clever to use the games mechanics to the fullest.

There is a clear reason why people try to build towers in hard to reach places and it has been done from the very begging by every guild that concerned themselves with the system. The problem is TC towers are ridiculously hard to defend due to their little HP.
Everyone has some sort of base of operation where you have your fighters, for PvP guilds its usually their keep.
TC towers are out in the world, ideally somewhere where they can take control over a lot of land with as little overlap as possible.
If they where on open ground even a small group of attackers could severely damage or if they are lucky even take out the tower before you even make it there.
Walling in towers and putting them in hard to reach places is the only logical outcome.
Even with walled in towers there is still the issue that players can just walk outside of render distance of the wall upgrades, then even if the wall is placed at maximum height the upper part of the tower is exposed and vulnerable, especially since the banner on top of the tower is part of the towers hitbox.
This is also a reason why towers are placed at high ground since it makes it a lot harder to use the render trick and to hit it with new magic spells.

I think tower HP should be increased to be at least 1 million HP, material cost and deed cost would need to be adjusted as well as tower building restrictions. The easiest way to explain is only where you could build a house you should be able to build a TC tower.
I have discussed this a lot recently and i am aware that this would make it a lot harder for smaller new guilds to destroy towers, but it should be the endgame struggle for PvP guilds anyway and not a new player activity.
It would just be a much better system.

I also think that there should be a restriction to where you can build walls, i think walls should only be place able around the guild stone radius of a keep. For this to be balanced the health points of max module houses needs a big buff. (They cost around 5k gold but their HP does not resemble this at all)

War should be force able on everyone, you don't need approval in any scenario that is even remotely logical.
There could be a ingame warning on login if your guild is at war to alert you.
Anyone that attacks your assets should automatically be at war with you, right now only the one firing the siege weapon turns grey, people can body block him to turn you red. You will literally turn red defending your assets against attackers.
Add a cooldown to rejoining guilds, there are so many "exploits" with getting kicked out of the guild at a wartag, most can be punished with a 24 hour cooldown on rejoining the same guild

Guilds should be able to place more than one guild stone (for example in two separate keeps, or a house and a keep, or three houses)
Currently guilds need to create a new guild just to take over more than one keep and then ally, this makes it extremely annoying to manage TC.
Its just not really supported by the game mechanics, the alliance system helps but there is still a lot of stuff that is separated like alert towers, upkeep, guild chat, and so forth.
In the past people just did not place a guildstone in the second keep and instead build a TC tower inside the keep building to have all the TC under the main stone, this is not possible anymore and it was just a workaround.
Multiple guild stones would be a better system.

Destroying a guildstone should give your guild a percentage of their prominence, (lets say its 50% if a guild has 4 guild stones it should be 50%/4 )
If a guild has no guildstone left that are placed the prominence should decay over time around 1% a day.
Prominence needs to be connected with risk, a coward should not be able to keep prominence for long.

This pretty much sums up the core of what i think are the most important changes that should be done to fix TC.

Less important changes:

Player limit for guilds might have to be increased

NPC Towns
I think there is still not enough reason to capture towns
They are mostly deserted because a lot of player have their crafters in their keep/houses where they can regear their red fighter characters easier.
This is a big issue for new players, their only way to get gear is to buy it, since towns are mostly empty there is hardly anybody putting gear on the broker except in Tindrem.

The broker tax should go straight to the controlling guild
Controlling guilds should be able to upgrade the city library and crafting stations
Upgraded town crafting stations should take 10% less material to craft
Upgraded library should have slots for special book vendors like animist
Guards should be able to be turned off completely (except Tindrem and MK)
Guards should ignore red characters of the controlling guilds
change flag to a new local blue in own controlled town or something, turn back to red if you commit a crime or leave the city limits
Maybe even add a special NPC outside the city that changes the tag for you, like a bribed guard

This would bring life back into the towns
Town activity is vital for new player survival

Increase blacklist capacity.
40 is just not enough in a game where the majority of veteran player have multiple accounts.

Add a KOS list or make it a replacement for the blacklist.
It should be a list with alot of space where guilds can add character names that are enemy's and can be killed without penalty no matter if they are part of a guild or not. (not in town)

Factions
Factions could be more like a town militia.
Back in the days reds liked to "raid" towns and militias formed to drive them back, factions could really work well with this.
You could be able to join/leave a faction at the town manger NPC
Faction members should have a green flag not turn grey for hitting each other but turn grey for looting a faction member.
There could be a Tindremene faction for Fabernum, Meduli and Tindrem
A Khurite faction for Morin Khur, Moh Ki, BakTi and Vadda
A Sarduccan faction for Sandland

I hope i did not forget anything
 
Last edited:
@Sebastian Persson @Herius @Henrik Nystrom
I have heard a lot of wrong information getting spread in a rather aggressive way by a few players that recently failed a siege.

Just to clarify some stuff here
First of all, there are no unsiegeable towers, absolutely nothing in this game is unsiegeable .
I have build, destroyed and also seen alot of "unsiegeable" towers fall trough out the years.
Some towers are just really hard to siege because they are hard to reach.
After getting up to date with the current game mechanics i can say it has never been easier to destroy "unsiegeable" towers.
The implementation of elementalism, portals and free house placement are real game changing in that aspect.
A single dedicated player could destroy any "unsiegeable" tower with the right timing.
Its not a easy task and its something that would need preparation.

People are also complained about walls, guards and fire arrows
I have made my own suggestions about this topic and i will try to make a quick summary at the end of this post

The main argument i have seen was something like:
"If you cant defend your keep you should not be allowed to have one"
followed by something like
"OMG nerf fire arrows, we had 20 people sieging and lost to 5 archers"
A skillful reader realizes the controversy in those statements.
According to the amount of salt the defending group clearly could and did defend their keep.
It is not impossible to siege a keep that is being defended, it has been done successfully before countless of times with even more numbers on both sides, it takes planning, preparation and it is not a easy task.
Sieging should never be a easy task, afterall you are destroying someones hard work.
A system where you would need to be the strongest group on the server 24/7 or you loose your tower/keep is complete garbage but that is exactly what some people seem to be asking for.
It would be arena online...... Funny how none of them play MR tough, the game that is exactly that.
Anyway walls/guards/archers are what humans always used to fight off bigger odds, its just a realistic approach that they can hold out until the siege breaks. Its not like there are no counter measures.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Since there has been numerous discussions about how people think TC should be changed here is a quick overview of what i think:
This is just my personal opinion and has nothing to do with my guild, politics, whatsoever
Yeah most has been said countless times before but i finally typed it down and tried to explain my point of view.

I really dislike how TC towers work and to what meta it has lead, i have stated this numerous times and even years ago shortly after the TC patch was released i have pointed this out in my feedback. I would prefer a village system much like in Darkfall but we have to work with what we have got. Please do not misinterpret this as pointing fingers, its just clever to use the games mechanics to the fullest.

There is a clear reason why people try to build towers in hard to reach places and it has been done from the very begging by every guild that concerned themselves with the system. The problem is TC towers are ridiculously hard to defend due to their little HP.
Everyone has some sort of base of operation where you have your fighters, for PvP guilds its usually their keep.
TC towers are out in the world, ideally somewhere where they can take control over a lot of land with as little overlap as possible.
If they where on open ground even a small group of attackers could severely damage or if they are lucky even take out the tower before you even make it there.
Walling in towers and putting them in hard to reach places is the only logical outcome.
Even with walled in towers there is still the issue that players can just walk outside of render distance of the wall upgrades, then even if the wall is placed at maximum height the upper part of the tower is exposed and vulnerable, especially since the banner on top of the tower is part of the towers hitbox.
This is also a reason why towers are placed at high ground since it makes it a lot harder to use the render trick and to hit it with new magic spells.

I think tower HP should be increased to be at least 1 million HP, material cost and deed cost would need to be adjusted as well as tower building restrictions. The easiest way to explain is only where you could build a house you should be able to build a TC tower.
I have discussed this a lot recently and i am aware that this would make it a lot harder for smaller new guilds to destroy towers, but it should be the endgame struggle for PvP guilds anyway and not a new player activity.
It would just be a much better system.

I also think that there should be a restriction to where you can build walls, i think walls should only be place able around the guild stone radius of a keep. For this to be balanced the health points of max module houses needs a big buff. (They cost around 5k gold but their HP does not resemble this at all)

War should be force able on everyone, you don't need approval in any scenario that is even remotely logical.
There could be a ingame warning on login if your guild is at war to alert you.
Anyone that attacks your assets should automatically be at war with you, right now only the one firing the siege weapon turns grey, people can body block him to turn you red. You will literally turn red defending your assets against attackers.
Add a cooldown to rejoining guilds, there are so many "exploits" with getting kicked out of the guild at a wartag, most can be punished with a 24 hour cooldown on rejoining the same guild

Guilds should be able to place more than one guild stone (for example in two separate keeps, or a house and a keep, or three houses)
Currently guilds need to create a new guild just to take over more than one keep and then ally, this makes it extremely annoying to manage TC.
Its just not really supported by the game mechanics, the alliance system helps but there is still a lot of stuff that is separated like alert towers, upkeep, guild chat, and so forth.
In the past people just did not place a guildstone in the second keep and instead build a TC tower inside the keep building to have all the TC under the main stone, this is not possible anymore and it was just a workaround.
Multiple guild stones would be a better system.

Destroying a guildstone should give your guild a percentage of their prominence, (lets say its 50% if a guild has 4 guild stones it should be 50%/4 )
If a guild has no guildstone left that are placed the prominence should decay over time around 1% a day.
Prominence needs to be connected with risk, a coward should not be able to keep prominence for long.

This pretty much sums up the core of what i think are the most important changes that should be done to fix TC.

Less important changes:

Player limit for guilds might have to be increased

NPC Towns
I think there is still not enough reason to capture towns
They are mostly deserted because a lot of player have their crafters in their keep/houses where they can regear their red fighter characters easier.
This is a big issue for new players, their only way to get gear is to buy it, since towns are mostly empty there is hardly anybody putting gear on the broker except in Tindrem.

The broker tax should go straight to the controlling guild
Controlling guilds should be able to upgrade the city library and crafting stations
Upgraded town crafting stations should take 10% less material to craft
Upgraded library should have slots for special book vendors like animist
Guards should be able to be turned off completely (except Tindrem and MK)
Guards should ignore red characters of the controlling guilds
change flag to a new local blue in own controlled town or something, turn back to red if you commit a crime or leave the city limits
Maybe even add a special NPC outside the city that changes the tag for you, like a bribed guard

This would bring life back into the towns
Town activity is vital for new player survival

Increase blacklist capacity.
200 is just not enough in a game where the majority of veteran player has multiple accounts.

Add a KOS list or make it a replacement for the blacklist.
It should be a list with alot of space where guilds can add character names that are enemy's and can be killed without penalty no matter if they are part of a guild or not. (not in town)

Factions
Factions could be more like a town militia.
Back in the days reds liked to "raid" towns and militias formed to drive them back, factions could really work well with this.
You could be able to join/leave a faction at the town manger NPC
Faction members should have a green flag not turn grey for hitting each other but turn grey for looting a faction member.
There could be a Tindremene faction for Fabernum, Meduli and Tindrem
A Khurite faction for Morin Khur, Moh Ki, BakTi and Vadda
A Sarduccan faction for Sandland

I hope i did not forget anything
Pretty much sums all we discussed on @Rolufe stream.
Good suggestions, i think lots of players would be happy with changes proposed here.
 

oykd

Senior Member
mk shoudnt be a starter town ;/ if so everytown town have a starter zone like before...
 
mk shoudnt be a starter town ;/ if so everytown town have a starter zone like before...
I believe Henrik said that after the starter island players will be able to pick to go to any town they want.

So the idea of town tutor npcs and tutorial cities may be out of the picture after then.

These types of things will hopefully be covered at the island first and then players are released across the open world.
 

oykd

Senior Member
I believe Henrik said that after the starter island players will be able to pick to go to any town they want.

So the idea of town tutor npcs and tutorial cities may be out of the picture after then.

These types of things will hopefully be covered at the island first and then players are released across the open world.
thats how it was before
 
Factions
Factions could be more like a town militia.
Back in the days reds liked to "raid" towns and militias formed to drive them back, factions could really work well with this.
You could be able to join/leave a faction at the town manger NPC
Faction members should have a green flag not turn grey for hitting each other but turn grey for looting a faction member.
There could be a Tindremene faction for Fabernum, Meduli and Tindrem
A Khurite faction for Morin Khur, Moh Ki, BakTi and Vadda
A Sarduccan faction for Sandland
I like this, having more factions in addition to the three pvp-oriented ones we have now will add to the myriad of options available to the player, as well as making the world more interesting. The more factions there are, the more intricate and deep the politics.
 
I like this, having more factions in addition to the three pvp-oriented ones we have now will add to the myriad of options available to the player, as well as making the world more interesting. The more factions there are, the more intricate and deep the politics.
I agree, it does seem natural that people would join together in this way.
 
Thread starter #9

Finnley

Senior Member
There is no perfect system with free placement.
I am still uncertain about the suggested HP increase since you could just spam towers and your enemy would have to spend siege equipment to take them down.
Another issue that plays into this and has been neglected for the longest time is that most mountain passes have become inaccessible with the engine upgrade in 2014. Almost every mountain used to be climbable and even on the biggest one by Fabernum you could climb up half way, nowadays those and even a few new areas are only accessible via TC or portals, this makes reaching some tower spots extremely hard.
Myrland has never gotten the long needed rework.
Glacier shard just makes this whole thing alot harder to balance, it seems like those new spells released completely untested.
A house without a palisade is almost impossible to defend now, glacier shard and pets just annihilate defensive archers with ease.
Pets just ignore house walls and glacier shard AoE hits trough the cealing and walls.
 
We ask for too much from a game which is too old. The imagination of suggestions are awesome but they’re all just pipe dreams of what could have been

Development are unable to update basic typos in any body of text, in game or on websites. It takes almost two weeks to correct a weakspot bug that took less than 30 minutes for players to identify when the initial patch went live. The arena has banker NPCs which need to be manually moved by a GM every server reset via a support petition. Sieges have been cautioned “continue at own risk” because of abuse which has been possible for years, and sieged assets were allowed to be rebuilt in the same places. Development are unable to collect any form of metadata on individual players to help with a multitude harmful ingame bugs, instead players are at the discretion of the individual GM on whether they can help the player or not. Entire flagging systems have been forced into redundancy for lesser equivalents rather than improving upon what already exists.

The passion of the players is suffocating (me included). Take a deep breath, reflect on the past 4 years of development and what has been achieveabe so far. Then, let this nonsense end
 
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TC system is busted, promotes zerg, ninja sieging and carebearness, I NEVER had to sit on top of walls naked and fire arrow siege weapons or keep ressing inside a mang to try to disrupt the sieges, almost all siege defense I played, I won, and holy fuck I got zerged in a few of them, and as much I'm against gate fighting, that was something I used to pull victories, slowly killing people. TC should be about fighting not hiding behind TC and using a guard macro. Thats my point of view.
 

Najwalaylah

Exalted Member
We ask for too much from a game which is too old.
It's hard not to agree with this, and it's the opinion, with some variations, that I hear most.
 
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Sieges are really boring right now, you used to be able to drop a mang for pvp, but defenders now realized they can be far more effective just shooting fire arrows, guard macroing, portaling into mangs, etc. instead of fighting. And while its fine for defenders to have some tools to fight off bigger odds like fire arrows, there should be more options to force the action too, stuff like siege towers to take over the walls and destructible doors on keeps to invade them, etc.

Guards really have to go tho, they ruin any kind of pvp near TC when they bug out and aimbot you. The truth is SV cant fix AI shooting thru walls and bugging in the ground, they always say the same: blah blah is "improved" in every patch, but I never see any difference. So just remove them, or at least any ranged attack they have.
 

Xunila

Cronite Supporter
And who wants to return to the very early state of the siege system? One week of preparation with the transport of all boulders and log out boulder holders (subscribed characters!) next to the destination. Then at the day of the siege need dozens of players to be active with sieging for 12-16 hours continuously! That's what I remember about the first sieges I participated.
 
And to add more salt to the wound, recently i discovered that you can actually build a house inside the tindrem gardens, right inside the tindrem walls. WOW!! and most towns have very little no build zones to it and allows players to build really close to the cities. But areas that needs to be build able are just huge no build zones. Let me build next to Tekton bridge so i can seal that bridge off permanently too. That is nowhere near a city, Star vault has allowed TC placement inside caves, inside cities, important bosses cave entrances, and when you report it they would say put it in the forums so game developers can look into it. Shit! i just told you and you can see it. but that is not an exploit so we wont do anything about it. That is all I'm gonna get from star vault so why even bother!! fuck it, i wasted enough time writing about it already .
 

Najwalaylah

Exalted Member
Star vault has allowed TC placement inside caves... when you report it they would say put it in the forums so game developers can look into it. Shit! i just told you and you can see it. but that is not an exploit so we wont do anything about it.
I'm surprised at Star Vault for saying *that* much-- to put TC spots in caves 'in the forums so game developers can look into it'. From the very first, some folks double-checked with SV to make sure that some of those spots were supposed to be where they were, and were told that, yes, this was as planned-- by Henrik, no less-- in at least one case.

It's just funny that a house or houses could be built in the gardens, though. But then, ever since Godly built a war machine inside Meduli and used it to 'bomb' the main bank, some of these (non-exploit) choices seemed odd.
 
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