Why ai pets hit harder than player?

Najwalaylah

Exalted Member
Another thing to keep in mind is that a necromancer does require a lot of time and effort to create. You have to run an end game dungeon likely multiple times as well as find the scrolls and seals for the other spells.
In a game as long-lasting as this (and perhaps unfortunately), eventually lots of players have the time and resources to make the efforts, and then they are Necromancers for Life (yeah, I know how that sounds).

Maybe it is too bad that it doesn't take more effort to maintain these abilities? The bar is high, but once you're over it, it's over.
 
In a game as long-lasting as this (and perhaps unfortunately), eventually lots of players have the time and resources to make the efforts, and then they are Necromancers for Life (yeah, I know how that sounds).

Maybe it is too bad that it doesn't take more effort to maintain these abilities? The bar is high, but once you're over it, it's over.
I agree I wish there were more organic things that affected many 'classes', but I feel that is something far away. Another point to note, in relation to what you have just said:

"A foot fighter can be born from scratch and be maxed out in a matter of 2 days, if you macro as most players do. Then it's as simple as grabbing a mass produced weapon and armor set and, by all means, you are functional and ready to go. If you die? You revive, grab another round of gear, and head right back out.

If a necromancers pet dies, they just lost potentially weeks of work. If you did the math for leveling as im sure someone has, at LEAST a full 24 hours or something like that. Not to mention all of the prep beforehand into creating the character itself."

Despite being 'over the bar' as you said, despite it being a substantially higher bar than that of something like a foot fighter, they are still consistently putting out a higher risk of loss when in combat (when using pets, as seems to be the topic at hand).
 

Bicorps

Trial Member
I agree I wish there were more organic things that affected many 'classes', but I feel that is something far away. Another point to note, in relation to what you have just said:

"A foot fighter can be born from scratch and be maxed out in a matter of 2 days, if you macro as most players do. Then it's as simple as grabbing a mass produced weapon and armor set and, by all means, you are functional and ready to go. If you die? You revive, grab another round of gear, and head right back out.

If a necromancers pet dies, they just lost potentially weeks of work. If you did the math for leveling as im sure someone has, at LEAST a full 24 hours or something like that. Not to mention all of the prep beforehand into creating the character itself."

Despite being 'over the bar' as you said, despite it being a substantially higher bar than that of something like a foot fighter, they are still consistently putting out a higher risk of loss when in combat (when using pets, as seems to be the topic at hand).
the foot fighter with 3000g+ of gear still get hit for 60-80 range attack by a pet that u press 1 button and it attack.
 

MolagAmur

Well-Known Member
Because you should worry about what you enjoy playing, not what always wins.
That logic only applies to when you can still have a fighting chance while playing what you enjoy.

I also want to clarify that I was using that as an exponential example, along the lines of 'legends and unexplained events and powers ', as in, not typical, or easily reproducible, or reproducible at all, even.

Another thing to keep in mind is that a necromancer does require a lot of time and effort to create. You have to run an end game dungeon likely multiple times as well as find the scrolls and seals for the other spells. You need to have such things scribed. You need to spend hours on hours training beasts, and then, only after you have found good recipes for them.

A foot fighter can be born from scratch and be maxed out in a matter of 2 days, if you macro as most players do. Then it's as simple as grabbing a mass produced weapon and armor set and, by all means, you are functional and ready to go. If you die? You revive, grab another round of gear, and head right back out.

If a necromancers pet dies, they just lost potentially weeks of work. If you did the math for leveling as im sure someone has, at LEAST a full 24 hours or something like that. Not to mention all of the prep beforehand into creating the character itself.

It is effort and preparation vs reward, here. Add that in to my previous break down that the game is meant to be a fantasy world full of twists, turns, and unfair enemies and problems that require creativity or planning to defeat or overcome.
Please, not the "this takes a lot of effort and money so it should he unbalanced". That's the kind of thinking that kills games...as you can see. I recently quit BDO and that kind of thought process is there. The people who put in more time and money become so powerful they can 1vX with their eyes closed. Game is dying btw. Has much more to offer than MO so it's a horrible comparison, but you get the point.
 

Najwalaylah

Exalted Member
That logic only applies to when you can still have a fighting chance while playing what you enjoy.
I think we can all stipulate that we neither want an "I-win-every time" Button -nor- to never have a chance of winning.

... Except of course for those who *do* want an I-win Button.

Let's not be them.
 
That logic only applies to when you can still have a fighting chance while playing what you enjoy.


Please, not the "this takes a lot of effort and money so it should he unbalanced". That's the kind of thinking that kills games...as you can see. I recently quit BDO and that kind of thought process is there. The people who put in more time and money become so powerful they can 1vX with their eyes closed. Game is dying btw. Has much more to offer than MO so it's a horrible comparison, but you get the point.
I think the question is balance itself. If you look at my previous statements, you should be considering the games original and less remembered current, vision. It is not supposed to be fair, it is supposed to be hard.

It's not like a necromancer is paying SV 50 bucks and getting a win for free card. They are putting in actual effort and hours into the game to attain what they get, and even then, what exists now, aside from the glaring issues of unlimited pet stamina and general bad AI, is not unbalanced. Those pets are work and so, should be powerful. Like a wooden wall vs a metal one. Resource and time.

If I were wearing Oghminium Armor, with potions and perfect weaponry that was enhanced with the best enhancements, armed with a bow as well, and I encountered a single necromancer and their deathknight, i would probably still flee. Why? Not because the game is unbalanced. But because I understand that it is not something for a warrior to face alone. If I couldnt leave and had to fight, i'd give em hell. I'd try to kill the necromancer. I'd kite the beast. I'd pot. I'd do my best. And if I couldn't prevail, I would be very frustrated at my losses. But I would not consider the game unbalanced because my high gold valued gear did not enable me to win. I would just accept that a mage and magical undead beast are not meant to be taken down easily by a single warrior. And that being said, there is still a decent chance i could win if I played my cards correctly.


I think the main issue here isnt the strength of the pets, or acid being thrown (shields block projectiles now guys!), it's more the greed of thinking expensive armor makes you a god, but further than that, The problem is the AI and the lack of pet stamina. It's one thing to have these pets exist, another for them to be able to chase endlessly, clip through walls and do other foolish things.

I feel like it is hard to properly argue their correct place in the game until they are fixed, and by that logic, currently, I agree they probably should not currently exist, simply due to the AI issues, NOT because they are too strong.

Rather than make threads and arguments about them being too strong, put the same effort into trying to get the devs to spend a couple of patches solely on AI fixing.
 

MolagAmur

Well-Known Member
I think the question is balance itself. If you look at my previous statements, you should be considering the games original and less remembered current, vision. It is not supposed to be fair, it is supposed to be hard.

It's not like a necromancer is paying SV 50 bucks and getting a win for free card. They are putting in actual effort and hours into the game to attain what they get, and even then, what exists now, aside from the glaring issues of unlimited pet stamina and general bad AI, is not unbalanced. Those pets are work and so, should be powerful. Like a wooden wall vs a metal one. Resource and time.

If I were wearing Oghminium Armor, with potions and perfect weaponry that was enhanced with the best enhancements, armed with a bow as well, and I encountered a single necromancer and their deathknight, i would probably still flee. Why? Not because the game is unbalanced. But because I understand that it is not something for a warrior to face alone. If I couldnt leave and had to fight, i'd give em hell. I'd try to kill the necromancer. I'd kite the beast. I'd pot. I'd do my best. And if I couldn't prevail, I would be very frustrated at my losses. But I would not consider the game unbalanced because my high gold valued gear did not enable me to win. I would just accept that a mage and magical undead beast are not meant to be taken down easily by a single warrior. And that being said, there is still a decent chance i could win if I played my cards correctly.


I think the main issue here isnt the strength of the pets, or acid being thrown (shields block projectiles now guys!), it's more the greed of thinking expensive armor makes you a god, but further than that, The problem is the AI and the lack of pet stamina. It's one thing to have these pets exist, another for them to be able to chase endlessly, clip through walls and do other foolish things.

I feel like it is hard to properly argue their correct place in the game until they are fixed, and by that logic, currently, I agree they probably should not currently exist, simply due to the AI issues, NOT because they are too strong.

Rather than make threads and arguments about them being too strong, put the same effort into trying to get the devs to spend a couple of patches solely on AI fixing.
Wow. I actually agree with you 100%. Well...almost. I still think AI damage is far too high. Nobody or anything player controlled should do quite that much damage.

Also, who are you? I'm assuming you had to make a new forum account, but there is no way you're a new player.
 

SOAKED

New Member
I think the question is balance itself. If you look at my previous statements, you should be considering the games original and less remembered current, vision. It is not supposed to be fair, it is supposed to be hard.

It's not like a necromancer is paying SV 50 bucks and getting a win for free card. They are putting in actual effort and hours into the game to attain what they get, and even then, what exists now, aside from the glaring issues of unlimited pet stamina and general bad AI, is not unbalanced. Those pets are work and so, should be powerful. Like a wooden wall vs a metal one. Resource and time.

If I were wearing Oghminium Armor, with potions and perfect weaponry that was enhanced with the best enhancements, armed with a bow as well, and I encountered a single necromancer and their deathknight, i would probably still flee. Why? Not because the game is unbalanced. But because I understand that it is not something for a warrior to face alone. If I couldnt leave and had to fight, i'd give em hell. I'd try to kill the necromancer. I'd kite the beast. I'd pot. I'd do my best. And if I couldn't prevail, I would be very frustrated at my losses. But I would not consider the game unbalanced because my high gold valued gear did not enable me to win. I would just accept that a mage and magical undead beast are not meant to be taken down easily by a single warrior. And that being said, there is still a decent chance i could win if I played my cards correctly.


I think the main issue here isnt the strength of the pets, or acid being thrown (shields block projectiles now guys!), it's more the greed of thinking expensive armor makes you a god, but further than that, The problem is the AI and the lack of pet stamina. It's one thing to have these pets exist, another for them to be able to chase endlessly, clip through walls and do other foolish things.

I feel like it is hard to properly argue their correct place in the game until they are fixed, and by that logic, currently, I agree they probably should not currently exist, simply due to the AI issues, NOT because they are too strong.

Rather than make threads and arguments about them being too strong, put the same effort into trying to get the devs to spend a couple of patches solely on AI fixing.
I agree they should be powerful, but mages already ignore armor with their spells, for their pets to also ignore armor is clearly imbalanced.

I actually believe DeathKnights are in a fairly good place now, they are insanely strong and nearly impossible to kill most of the time due to their blocking and innate damage mitigation, but they don't ignore armor and their attacks can be countered. It's an extremely powerful pet but counterplay exists.


Shades are the problem that need to be fixed. mages that already ignore armor should not have pets that ignore armor, especially not ranged pet and there is plenty of precedent for this in the games history. Due to the AI being abused by command spamming theres basically zero counterplay to these abominations.

It's not balanced and needs to be sorted.

fix shades.
 
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Najwalaylah

Exalted Member
Does Necromancy, in practice, damage the caster (all at once, or over time, or both)?

I don't know if it's been suggested that it should, or if it would help. As it is, it does seem like the kind of practice that should have dire consequences when anything goes wrong, or takes too long to work.

It's also probably too late to change Necromancy in that way if it did improve the balance; the screams of the damned and disappointed would echo forever on these pages.

(Omitting paragraphs about how by fantasy-logic, a few schools of magic seem like they should be more 'natural' and possibly weaker, but Necromancy seems like the logical choice for 'strongest and most unnatural of all' in terms of Nave; c.f. The Necromancer event of long ago with others that involved giant creatures¹, hordes of creatures², the Kimuru³, demons⁴ , invasions⁵ , or things falling⁶ from the sky or the black ether. Not sure even with catapults that players really got him defeated so much as the event just timed out?)


I agree they should be powerful, but mages already ignore armor with their spells, for their pets to also ignore armor is clearly imbalanced.
I agree. If you need to rationalise it, those pets summoned by Necromancy take magic but also a great deal of physical components to summon, so, yes; they shouldn't entirely ignore armour.


¹ Byakko (he made a lovely rug), the Rabbits, and even the Thorax when it first appeared.
² Wave after wave of demented & vengeful nightsnatches, wolves, et cetera, marching cheerfully out of obscurity into the Soldeus Worshippers Gather / Night of Umbra Event. "Have you heard the news? The dogs are dead. You better stay home..." --Pink Floyd, Sheep
³ Only an event in terms of showing up in Toxai where he was least expected, and a hailcaster being available to be fired at him.
Malturn, and his herald Mastema, namely, on various occasions. (Not giving short shrift to the argument that Malturn is the Titan son of Umbra and was behind most attacks of evil upon Nave and her creations-- he might well be the otherwise nameless Necromancer.)
⁵ Risar, Lizard Men, Rat Men, Steam Newbies...
⁶ Meteorites (gift packages, basically?) and Relics (powerful, tempting, corruptive, and long-lasting, but don't directly harm anyone).
 

Najwalaylah

Exalted Member
...[W]ho are you? I'm assuming you had to make a new forum account, but there is no way you're a new player.
I like thinking of Emotional Incarnate as the Clint Eastwood character in High Plains Drifter; no one quite recognises him, but he's probably the restless embodied ghost of someone untimely ripped from the world (...of Nave...), here to paint the town red and see revenge wrought upon those who did nothing to help.
 

MolagAmur

Well-Known Member
I like thinking of Emotional Incarnate as the Clint Eastwood character in High Plains Drifter; no one quite recognises him, but he's probably the restless embodied ghost of someone untimely ripped from the world (...of Nave...), here to paint the town red and see revenge wrought upon those who did nothing to help.
Fuck. I'm jealous.
 
For the people who mentioned magic and AI magic / projectile attacks (acid) that are not magical, ignoring armor mitigation, perhaps it is time to bring around a Magic Resilience stat on different craft able materials. I do feel different materials and makes of armor should react and protect differently against magic. I feel like natural materials would be the better of the two, if you were to compare metals, as magic is generally linked to energy/life, and metal is a conductor, where animal materials would come from life. That is a personal opinion.

I know such things have been suggested before, but again - I do not think the issue here is with the pets. I think it is with how the game handles them. AI. The good point you have made of no magic mitigation.

I do want to stress that in my opinion, I would never want to see magic mitigation rise much past something like 40%(and even that, when the armor is kitted exactly for the purpose of being anti magic). Magic should always be a threat, unlike a flakestone sword on tungsteel breastplate.

Something to think about pushing for, rather than make threads like these.
 
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@Sebastian Persson @Herius

The thread evolved passed the original complaint. I suggest, if not wanting to read the entire thing, at least going through and reading my personal posts. If such things were to come to be or be fixed, while @Herius is balance, there would be a lot for you to do as well @Sebastian Persson .

EDIT: As pointed out, this may seem self centered. I suggested it because my posts in this thread highlight all of the discussed changes or alternatives that were spoken of, and would be more easily read that way.
 
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A straight nerf to shades damage would work. But I wouldnt mind seeing a slight magic mitigation buff added to armors, and a way mages can up their damage to counter it (aka a holdable weapon /equippable that they can actually risk,that has dur, like the rest of us). Its really stupid that a naked mage with 1g in stuff can run around healing and t lashing for full damage. The "they had to invest in an expensive spellbook" doesnt work for me. and I play mage now.. Its stupid that my friends fighter gear all costs way more than mine and I just get to run around in pleb with a spirit box and some trash do stupid damage.

But the inconsistency in risk v reward for mages and non mages is pretty bad and should be changed. And if mages are less good than others who get to risk good stuff than mages can get to use good stuff that will buff them too. But the current is pretty stupid. Needing no weapon to risk, and ignoring armor, is just bad, unless your max damage potential is always garbage.
 

SOAKED

New Member
@Sebastian Persson @Herius

The thread evolved passed the original complaint. I suggest, if not wanting to read the entire thing, at least going through and reading my personal posts. If such things were to come to be or be fixed, while @Herius is balance, there would be a lot for you to do as well @Sebastian Persson .
"I suggest, if not wanting to read the entire thing, at least going through and reading my personal posts."

Did you really write that? No, seriously mate did you actually just write that?

I don't even know where to start, I just read this and cringed out of my fucking mind. What level of delusional arrogant narcissism are you on to actually say something like that? This reads like some silver rated player on the fucking league-of-legends reddit talking about how he knows how to balance the game.

Are you truly so conceited to believe that your own ideas are somehow more valuable than those espoused by other members of the community in this thread? I would love to know more about your experience in Mortal and what exactly qualifies you as such an expert that you would make a comment like that. I read your previous post and thought it was a cute suggestion, though severely misguided. I thought hey, he's obviously not thought this through but he's trying to be constructive so that's nice.

But yeah let's go ahead and get into it since now I just can't help myself.


Like I said before, your idea to solve this problem of high damage ranged pets ignoring armor is cute, and that's about it. You clearly haven't thought about the broader implications of the changes you're suggesting to solve this simple issue that has already been solved before, so I'll try to explain it to you in very simple words so you can understand. Giving some armor types magic defense is an interesting idea, I'm not opposed to it at all and think it would add a new element to armor crafting which I myself might even enjoy. The thing is this isn't an original idea and has been brought up many times before. The problem is the amount of work this would require while not really solving the real issue people are discussing at all. Do you understand that in order to give magic resist values to different armor types and materials basically requires an overhaul of multiple systems and rebalancing the likes of which the game has never seen? Do you have any idea the amount of work required to accomplish something like that vs just lowering the damage of a shade??

It's fucking embarrassing. to make such a misguided suggestion that is completely unrealistic and will almost certainly NEVER HAPPEN and going so far as to direct it at developers who have already heard this idea plenty of times before. Then claim it's the solution to such a simple problem and that your ideas are superior. It clearly exposes that you have no idea what you're talking about and also that you're an arrogant prick. I'm going to just go ahead and say that I don't think you have any real PvP experience in this game and you shouldn't be talking about how to balance anything.

get your shit together dude, you need some perspective.
 
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SOAKED

New Member
I also want to clarify that I was using that as an exponential example, along the lines of 'legends and unexplained events and powers ', as in, not typical, or easily reproducible, or reproducible at all, even.

Another thing to keep in mind is that a necromancer does require a lot of time and effort to create. You have to run an end game dungeon likely multiple times as well as find the scrolls and seals for the other spells. You need to have such things scribed. You need to spend hours on hours training beasts, and then, only after you have found good recipes for them.

A foot fighter can be born from scratch and be maxed out in a matter of 2 days, if you macro as most players do. Then it's as simple as grabbing a mass produced weapon and armor set and, by all means, you are functional and ready to go. If you die? You revive, grab another round of gear, and head right back out.

If a necromancers pet dies, they just lost potentially weeks of work. If you did the math for leveling as im sure someone has, at LEAST a full 24 hours or something like that. Not to mention all of the prep beforehand into creating the character itself.

It is effort and preparation vs reward, here. Add that in to my previous break down that the game is meant to be a fantasy world full of twists, turns, and unfair enemies and problems that require creativity or planning to defeat or overcome.
yeah this is just false and manipulative btw.

I can buy a necro book and animal mag book with gold and have a maxed necromancer in the same time it takes to make a fighter, everything you're writing here is utter shite and exaggeration because you clearly have an agenda. "if a necromancer pet dies they lost weeks of work"

man this is disgusting lies, it does NOT take that long to level necromancy pets with new training grounds, a necromancer can easily gather enough carcass for multiple pets within a couple hours.

You either don't understand the system you're discussing or you're just lying intentionally for your own benefit.


Should I bring up how long it takes for a slaghauler to create the highest tiers of metal and then for a crafter to obtain the lores for that metal and rare armor books only for mages to deal full damage through it anyway while the mage typically wears rags?

No, because this is just red herring bullshit that you're doing repeatedly throughout this thread, cut it the fuck out.
 
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"I suggest, if not wanting to read the entire thing, at least going through and reading my personal posts."

Did you really write that? No, seriously mate did you actually just write that?

I don't even know where to start, I just read this and cringed out of my fucking mind. What level of delusional arrogant narcissism are you on to actually say something like that? This reads like some silver rated player on the fucking league-of-legends reddit talking about how he knows how to balance the game.

Are you truly so conceited to believe that your own ideas are somehow more valuable than those espoused by other members of the community in this thread? I would love to know more about your experience in Mortal and what exactly qualifies you as such an expert that you would make a comment like that. I read your previous post and thought it was a cute suggestion, though severely misguided. I thought hey, he's obviously not thought this through but he's trying to be constructive so that's nice.

But yeah let's go ahead and get into it since now I just can't help myself.


Like I said before, your idea to solve this problem of high damage ranged pets ignoring armor is cute, and that's about it. You clearly haven't thought about the broader implications of the changes you're suggesting to solve this simple issue that has already been solved before, so I'll try to explain it to you in very simple words so you can understand. Giving some armor types magic defense is an interesting idea, I'm not opposed to it at all and think it would add a new element to armor crafting which I myself might even enjoy. The thing is this isn't an original idea and has been brought up many times before. The problem is the amount of work this would require while not really solving the real issue people are discussing at all. Do you understand that in order to give magic resist values to different armor types and materials basically requires an overhaul of multiple systems and rebalancing the likes of which the game has never seen? Do you have any idea the amount of work required to accomplish something like that vs just lowering the damage of a shade??

It's fucking embarrassing. to make such a misguided suggestion that is completely unrealistic and will almost certainly NEVER HAPPEN and going so far as to direct it at developers who have already heard this idea plenty of times before. Then claim it's the solution to such a simple problem and that your ideas are superior. It clearly exposes that you have no idea what you're talking about and also that you're an arrogant prick. I'm going to just go ahead and say that I don't think you have any real PvP experience in this game and you shouldn't be talking about how to balance anything.

get your shit together dude, you need some perspective.
yeah this is just false and manipulative btw.

I can buy a necro book and animal mag book with gold and have a maxed necromancer in the same time it takes to make a fighter, everything you're writing here is utter shite and exaggeration because you clearly have an agenda. "if a necromancer pet dies they lost weeks of work"

man this is disgusting lies, it does NOT take that long to level necromancy pets with new training grounds, a necromancer can easily gather enough carcass for multiple pets within a couple hours.

You either don't understand the system you're discussing or you're just lying intentionally for your own benefit.


Should I bring up how long it takes for a slaghauler to create the highest tiers of metal and then for a crafter to obtain the lores for that metal and rare armor books only for mages to deal full damage through it anyway while the mage typically wears rags?

No, because this is just red herring bullshit that you're doing repeatedly throughout this thread, cut it the fuck out.
I didn't read either of these past the first few words. Not worth my effort or energy.

I will say, though, about my directing the devs at my posts, that I am entirely confident in what I have said and do think, besides the original post of this thread talking about damage, that my posts outline all of the other information and alternative solutions that were brought up. Like magic mitigation, pet ai and pet stamina, etc. I also did not take direct credit for any of these things and mentioned in a couple of my posts, that yes, such things have been suggested before.

If they don't like it, they won't do it.

If you don't like my attitude, which I would define as 'wanting the game to thrive in the way it was designed, and thinking the people who do nothing but complain or get angry are useless and need to either learn to smarten up, or leave', then so be it. I'm not out here to hold hands. I'm out here to try and post some feedback beyond 'omg foot fighters need buf omg pets 2 much dmg omg why noob island so stupid ok wait hammers hurt too bad'.

Number balancing is also important, I agree. But so much more needs to happen, and all anyone seems to do, who end up getting attention anyway, is cry. Try offering solutions or looking at the big picture.

Anyway, I'm adding you to my ignore list. I could tell by the few words I did skim that your rage and vocabulary are not something I feel like bothering myself with. I am here to give feedback and try to steer things in a better direction, and if people don't like my ideas, then they don't have to. I am not going to fight over it, I will at most debate my point, politely.
 
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