Will/Has the Tindremic Sword ever become a "Cross"?

Thread starter #1

Tuhtram

Silver Supporter
I'm sure others have noticed the curious similarity to the sword of Tindrem and the Christian Cross. While I fully acknowledge the parallels are minor, there are some principles that are interesting to me.

Here we can clearly see the sword of Tindrem. Through minor simplification, it isn't hard to imagine this becoming something more along the lines of the well known Christian cross.​
While the sword of Tindrem lends itself well to the "crux commissa" shape, which was one of the many ways that a gibbet would be constructed for the act of gibbeting, the "handle" part could just as easily be extended just a bit further. This isn't in the lore, but it isn't hard to imagine a similar shape being formed.​
However, I don't imagine the Tindremenes donning the crux as a shape of reverence of a martyr, but rather them using the crux as a symbol of Tindremic power in a similar way to how they use the sword. So a simplified version of the sword of Tindrem would likely look like something similar to:​
Mats also happened to mention that "Nave" had to do with the architecture of a church which was important for the reason it's named the way it is. Assuming that the name "Nave" is Tindremic in origin, this would potentially mean that their churches at least have a semi-similar setup to the shape of Christian churches (usually in the shape of a crux immissa). This was a part of medieval architecture, and was in part inspired by the Roman Basilica (how I imagine the Library of Tindrem to actually look more like -- but don't get me started on how I imagine places to look, we'll be here all day.).​
So interestingly enough, I wonder if some Christian iconography (like symbols on the coat of arms or on a tabard) may be entirely accurate through the iconography of the Sword of Tindrem. If the people using them are Tindremene in cultural heritage and/or representing the Tindremic Empire, I'd consider it wholly possible that we might see a few familiar "cross" shapes around Nave but with an alternative meaning than what we're used to.​
In particular in colonies where they've been separated from "Tindrem proper" for some time, I can see them taking their own paths and potentially becoming shorter and more "X" like, but still representing that concept of pride and heritage.​
Just some musing on the matter.​
 

ThaBadMan

Exalted Member
Cross pfff, everyone knows its either a T or a t ;)
 

Xhodan Xeus

Well-Known Member
iv always looked and saw the sword as a T thought it would stand for Tindrem or Tindremic Empire something like that
 
Thread starter #7

Tuhtram

Silver Supporter
Now I remember what was making me think that there are cross-like motifs in MO and they must come from somewhere:


 

Hayasa

Honored Member
I don't think the crotch guard is big enough... I need a bigger plate for mine
 
Thread starter #9

Tuhtram

Silver Supporter
I don't think the crotch guard is big enough... I need a bigger plate for mine
Essentially the thought process that produced codpieces.
 

Sarkhan

Well-Known Member
As always, love your posts Tuhtram. Always giving me another perspective on stuff thats been stagnant for five years, just waiting for another person to rattle the thought process.


Now I remember what was making me think that there are cross-like motifs in MO and they must come from somewhere:



While not entirely important, it is worth noting that all four of those images are from the world of Warhammer. The first two are of Bretonnian knights, essentially french chivalric knights. The second two are shields related to Chaos soldiers. The set of armor as well is for a donation set I believe. Regardless, the cross has shown up as a symbol, you are correct.
 
I'm sure others have noticed the curious similarity to the sword of Tindrem and the Christian Cross. While I fully acknowledge the parallels are minor, there are some principles that are interesting to me.
I won't deny that this was a conscious choice when designing (and using) the Tindremic glyph.

Most people don't think of the crux commissa shape (T) as a "christian cross", but the similarities are definitely there which makes it a visually striking symbol, in my mind more so than a sword (which is naturally perceived as a sword, which means that the cross association is lost, and a sword is also quite uninspiring and unoriginal to say the least). Many drafts were made before coming up with the final form, as the symbol would also be used in the logo and for marketing (also, making sure it wouldn't read too much as a cross was of course equally important). However, lore-wise the symbol hasn't got anything at all to do with actual religion, pseudo-christian or not, so the similarities are mostly aesthetic. One likeness would be that the Tindremenes practice prospegnumi or "crucifixion", but again, they do it without religious implication. I guess their symbol just happens to have the right shape for that purpose :p A better comparison would be the Nazi swastika, i.e. a symbol that was revered but not worshiped in the theological sense, and which represented a worldly state or empire.

Also, all the images of knights and templars we had laying around actually affected the process but I don't remember what was the chicken or the egg - Hannu, by force of habit, drew crosses on a lot of the initial armor concepts, and however it came to be, that "T" meant we could keep that semi-subliminal association of power and devotion ;)

When it comes to in-game and lore, the T is actually the most basic representation of the Tricapita (not Tindrem), which in turn represents the whole empire. The symbol was supposed to exist in a number of forms for all important factions, similar to the caste marks for families. I've been digging deep and below is a very old and outdated cutout from some of the drafts I and Hannu did when trying to concretize my cloudy vision of Tindrem. So to give you some kind of answer to your question, as you can see at one time there actually were plenty of "crosses" tied to the symbol, but in the form of swords:

 
Thread starter #13

Tuhtram

Silver Supporter
Am I reading these right in that they say...
  • Tricapita
  • Pugnus
  • Custodia
  • Praecursi
  • Portus
  • Classius
  • Draconigena
(also the little guy on the bottom right is my favorite)
 
Classicus

Apart from that they seem right, although that was a draft and those names weren't final or complete in any way.
 

RhodriTaliesin

Cronite Supporter
Classicus

Apart from that they seem right, although that was a draft and those names weren't final or complete in any way.
If it is not too much to ask, could you perhaps indulge us with any information behind the Draconigena? They are certainly a class of Tindremic Warrior, obviously revered enough that they are depicted by statues in Meduli at the fountain.

Their armor known across the world. Who were they? What was their purpose? Why are they important to the Tindremic people and to Meduli?
 
Thread starter #16

Tuhtram

Silver Supporter
If it is not too much to ask, could you perhaps indulge us with any information behind the Draconigena? They are certainly a class of Tindremic Warrior, obviously revered enough that they are depicted by statues in Meduli at the fountain.

Their armor known across the world. Who were they? What was their purpose? Why are they important to the Tindremic people and to Meduli?
Them using Draconigena around the fountain may have been a coinkydink, people at Meduli may have just used it without it having any particular significance to the town itself. There's a Romulus & Remus statue outside of a local restaurant around here, doesn't mean that it has anything to do with the restaurant so much as a way to say "This has a Roman/Italian theme.". But, who knows! Maybe it does have some significance to the location.

Could be a warrior class, but I've also wondered if it's a bloodline or Tindremic subculture (which a warrior class could technically fit into).

Mats, it would be great to know what's up with them and the concept of Draconigena and Dragon reverence! Why do the Tindremenes love the dragons so much?
 

RhodriTaliesin

Cronite Supporter
Them using Draconigena around the fountain may have been a coinkydink, people at Meduli may have just used it without it having any particular significance to the town itself. There's a Romulus & Remus statue outside of a local restaurant around here, doesn't mean that it has anything to do with the restaurant so much as a way to say "This has a Roman/Italian theme.". But, who knows! Maybe it does have some significance to the location.

Could be a warrior class, but I've also wondered if it's a bloodline or Tindremic subculture (which a warrior class could technically fit into).

Mats, it would be great to know what's up with them and the concept of Draconigena and Dragon reverence! Why do the Tindremenes love the dragons so much?
When I look at them I see either one of two things. A warrior-cult that either hunted and exterminated dragons, or revered them and possibly fought alongside them or astride them.

Now while it may be common in modern day society to place statues that have no relevance to the town itself. That wasn't necessarily so for old world culture.

Also I understand in NYC that they have a statue of Balto, which I find amusing since that is a bit of Alaskan history right there, which is important to me as I was born and raised in that state.
 
Thread starter #18

Tuhtram

Silver Supporter
When I look at them I see either one of two things. A warrior-cult that either hunted and exterminated dragons, or revered them and possibly fought alongside them or astride them.

Now while it may be common in modern day society to place statues that have no relevance to the town itself. That wasn't necessarily so for old world culture.

Also I understand in NYC that they have a statue of Bolto, which I find amusing since that is a bit of Alaskan history right there, which is important to me as I was born and raised in that state.
In a material/wealth/opulence culture like the Tindremic Empire, I don't doubt they'd throw things around that look pretty. They go out of their way to eat highly poisonous fish for the thrill of it and the rich wear paper clothes that rip if they look around too fast just to show off that they never have to do any labor, they're not exactly the most practical of people when it comes to these sorts of things.

I'd guess they didn't hunt them since the Tindremenes love Dragons, and Dragons are associated enough with Tindrem as being "with" them that the Tindremic Empire is symbolized as a Dragon to the Khurite people:
There are a number of legendary bird-creatures, and Geeredh is one of them. The statue in Morin Khur depicts the defeat of the evil serpent - a well-known legend and concept among the tribes - but also act as a modern symbol of the Khurite opposition against the Tindremic Empire, the Dragon. Geeredh also stands for justice, which is why the Khurite guards wear his mask.
I think it's likely that Tindremenes (or Pre-Tindremenes) probably were the ones who spearheaded Dragon Magic (all based around working with Dragons as allies) and figured out the Dragon Language/Knowledge skills also mentioned. My bet is that they worked with the Dragons way back when (the Khurites seem to have a very extensive oral history that even covers the times before the continents split), especially because they seem sapient and have their own language. If they interacted with the Dragons and worked with them, it'd make sense that the Khurites would call their Empire "The Dragon" even if the Dragons don't seem to be around much anymore.

But, that's just my theory on how it'd all tie together. People've hunted wolves and still revered 'em so hunting and reverence aren't mutually exclusive, but wolves aren't sapient like Dragons appear to be which adds a different element to it. I think your "revered them and possibly fought alongside them or astride them" is likely. Maybe they did some shady stuff though, every culture in MO does shady stuff.

And yeah, Balto is great! An amazing dog.
 

Najwalaylah

Exalted Member
I'm sure others have noticed the curious similarity to the sword of Tindrem and the Christian Cross. While I fully acknowledge the parallels are minor, there are some principles that are interesting to me.

Here we can clearly see the sword of Tindrem. Through minor simplification, it isn't hard to imagine this becoming something more along the lines of the well known Christian cross.

While the sword of Tindrem lends itself well to the "crux commissa" shape, which was one of the many ways that a gibbet would be constructed for the act of gibbeting, the "handle" part could just as easily be extended just a bit further. This isn't in the lore, but it isn't hard to imagine a similar shape being formed.

However, I don't imagine the Tindremenes donning the crux as a shape of reverence of a martyr, but rather them using the crux as a symbol of Tindremic power in a similar way to how they use the sword. So a simplified version of the sword of Tindrem would likely look like something similar to:

Mats also happened to mention that "Nave" had to do with the architecture of a church which was important for the reason it's named the way it is. Assuming that the name "Nave" is Tindremic in origin, this would potentially mean that their churches at least have a semi-similar setup to the shape of Christian churches (usually in the shape of a crux immissa). This was a part of medieval architecture, and was in part inspired by the Roman Basilica (how I imagine the Library of Tindrem to actually look more like -- but don't get me started on how I imagine places to look, we'll be here all day.).

So interestingly enough, I wonder if some Christian iconography (like symbols on the coat of arms or on a tabard) may be entirely accurate through the iconography of the Sword of Tindrem. If the people using them are Tindremene in cultural heritage and/or representing the Tindremic Empire, I'd consider it wholly possible that we might see a few familiar "cross" shapes around Nave but with an alternative meaning than what we're used to.

In particular in colonies where they've been separated from "Tindrem proper" for some time, I can see them taking their own paths and potentially becoming shorter and more "X" like, but still representing that concept of pride and heritage.

Just some musing on the matter.
We know fully well that Tindremines, at least (and some folks in Sarducaa, maybe of Tindremene heritage) practice either death by hanging or exhibition of remains by hanging from impaled hands.

Look at the back side of the "Umbra" (winged, cloaked figure with a jar, entwined with a viper) statue in the Tindrem Gardens, and find the Hanged Man, a skeleton nailed up by the hands in a position that would be crucifixion if he were on either a T-cross or a crux imissa.


But the Tindrem "sword" (so masculine, virile, or martial in import *now*) also looks very much like a Goddess symbol familiar from the Real World. Specifically, it looks like some symbols for Ishtar / Asherah / Isis, etc.:






... and to me this makes the pointy ends of the 'crossguard' and pointy 'pommel' of the 'Sword' of Tindrem make a kind of sense, whereas they have no 'point' being on a weapon.

(The orthodox belief in Sol Deus, the Radiant Lord, seems to require thinking of Nave as a goddess, but as a goddess 'deceased' after being 'murdered by Umbra'. Objectively, this seems like the usual coverup performed on powerful goddesses by worshippers of male, solar deities-- especially on Asherah, the wife of Jehovah or Yahoo-wahoo, or however you say it. ... Don't stone me.)
 
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